http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos?hl=en
Today's topics:
* Consumer Reports: GM's Volt 'doesn't really make a lot of sense' - 23
messages, 11 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/360dc4f4d62b4736?hl=en
* NSK & Koyo bearings* wear >30x as fast as NTN *. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/9143f59dd7403d10?hl=en
* Help! Stalling problem the mechancs can't figure out. (I'm desperate!) - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/818559d7320695b3?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Consumer Reports: GM's Volt 'doesn't really make a lot of sense'
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/360dc4f4d62b4736?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 23 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 2 2011 5:59 pm
From: dsi1
On 3/2/2011 1:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "dsi1" <dsi1@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
> news:4d6eb067$0$14834$882e7ee2@usenet-news.net...
>> On 3/2/2011 3:13 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
>>> On 2011-03-01, dsi1<dsi1@usenet-news.net> wrote:
>>>> In the scheme of things, our personal opinions don't matter much do
>>>> they?
>>>
>>> They do at least in terms of the directions our own lives take. I can
>>> assure you that I will never own an electric or hybrid car. What the
>>> rest of you do is your own business, of course.
>>>
>>
>> Is there any reason that you think that the electric car is a bad idea?
>
> I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
> grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people
> that want to show they are green. One day though, they may become
> practical and useable by many daily commuters. I just don't see in in my
> lifetime, which I hope to be at least 20 or 30 more years.
I suspect that this will move faster than you think - at least the
potential is there. It all hinges on a battery capacity that's better
than what's available today. Once that point in battery development is
reached, change will be rapid. Just a guess.
The electric car would seem to be dead simple as far as manufacturing
goes - just junk everything connected with the engine, fuel system,
ignition system, transmission, exhaust system and keep everything else.
My guess is that a electric motor is going to be lighter and simpler and
cheaper than a piston engine - a lot cheaper.
>
> In 1902, many people thought the horseless carriage was just a novelty
> and man would never fly.
If history has taught us anything, it is that technology drives change
whether we're ready for it or not. The reality of this world is that the
majority of drivers are not piston-lovin' speed-freaking gear-heads.
Most folks just want to get in a car and get to where they want to go
with a minimum of fuss - they don't give a crap about internal or
external combustion or electric or hampster power.
== 2 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 1:01 am
From: Bjorn
On 3 mar, 01:59, dsi1 <d...@usenet-news.net> wrote:
> On 3/2/2011 1:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "dsi1" <d...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
> >news:4d6eb067$0$14834$882e7ee2@usenet-news.net...
> >> On 3/2/2011 3:13 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> >>> On 2011-03-01, dsi1<d...@usenet-news.net> wrote:
> >>>> In the scheme of things, our personal opinions don't matter much do
> >>>> they?
>
> >>> They do at least in terms of the directions our own lives take. I can
> >>> assure you that I will never own an electric or hybrid car. What the
> >>> rest of you do is your own business, of course.
>
> >> Is there any reason that you think that the electric car is a bad idea?
>
> > I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
> > grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people
> > that want to show they are green. One day though, they may become
> > practical and useable by many daily commuters. I just don't see in in my
> > lifetime, which I hope to be at least 20 or 30 more years.
>
> I suspect that this will move faster than you think - at least the
> potential is there. It all hinges on a battery capacity that's better
> than what's available today. Once that point in battery development is
> reached, change will be rapid. Just a guess.
>
> The electric car would seem to be dead simple as far as manufacturing
> goes - just junk everything connected with the engine, fuel system,
> ignition system, transmission, exhaust system and keep everything else.
> My guess is that a electric motor is going to be lighter and simpler and
> cheaper than a piston engine - a lot cheaper.
>
>
>
> > In 1902, many people thought the horseless carriage was just a novelty
> > and man would never fly.
>
> If history has taught us anything, it is that technology drives change
> whether we're ready for it or not. The reality of this world is that the
> majority of drivers are not piston-lovin' speed-freaking gear-heads.
> Most folks just want to get in a car and get to where they want to go
> with a minimum of fuss - they don't give a crap about internal or
> external combustion or electric or hampster power.
The geneva motor show 2011 is very much showing off electrical cars
and look at this one
== 3 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 1:29 am
From: dsi1
On 3/2/2011 11:01 PM, Bjorn wrote:
> On 3 mar, 01:59, dsi1<d...@usenet-news.net> wrote:
>> On 3/2/2011 1:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "dsi1"<d...@usenet-news.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4d6eb067$0$14834$882e7ee2@usenet-news.net...
>>>> On 3/2/2011 3:13 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
>>>>> On 2011-03-01, dsi1<d...@usenet-news.net> wrote:
>>>>>> In the scheme of things, our personal opinions don't matter much do
>>>>>> they?
>>
>>>>> They do at least in terms of the directions our own lives take. I can
>>>>> assure you that I will never own an electric or hybrid car. What the
>>>>> rest of you do is your own business, of course.
>>
>>>> Is there any reason that you think that the electric car is a bad idea?
>>
>>> I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
>>> grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people
>>> that want to show they are green. One day though, they may become
>>> practical and useable by many daily commuters. I just don't see in in my
>>> lifetime, which I hope to be at least 20 or 30 more years.
>>
>> I suspect that this will move faster than you think - at least the
>> potential is there. It all hinges on a battery capacity that's better
>> than what's available today. Once that point in battery development is
>> reached, change will be rapid. Just a guess.
>>
>> The electric car would seem to be dead simple as far as manufacturing
>> goes - just junk everything connected with the engine, fuel system,
>> ignition system, transmission, exhaust system and keep everything else.
>> My guess is that a electric motor is going to be lighter and simpler and
>> cheaper than a piston engine - a lot cheaper.
>>
>>
>>
>>> In 1902, many people thought the horseless carriage was just a novelty
>>> and man would never fly.
>>
>> If history has taught us anything, it is that technology drives change
>> whether we're ready for it or not. The reality of this world is that the
>> majority of drivers are not piston-lovin' speed-freaking gear-heads.
>> Most folks just want to get in a car and get to where they want to go
>> with a minimum of fuss - they don't give a crap about internal or
>> external combustion or electric or hampster power.
>
> The geneva motor show 2011 is very much showing off electrical cars
> and look at this one
>
> http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1056092_2011-geneva-motor-show-rolls-royce-phantom-electric-video
Pretty impressive - I think I'll pick one up. :-)
== 4 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 4:42 am
From: Roger Blake
On 2011-03-02, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snetnospam.net> wrote:
> I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
> grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that
> want to show they are green.
Yes, they are merely status symbols for ecofreaks who want to pretend
they are "saving the planet." (Hint to stoopid hippies: "the planet"
does not need saving! But I digress...)
Internal combustion is a tried and true, practical method of providing
execellent measures of power and range for a vehicle that can be used
for a vast array of purposes in a wide range of environments. "Recharging"
is easily accomplished in a few minutes at a fueling station.
How far will your electric car go on the freeway on a hot, rainy
summer night with the lights, wipers, and air conditioning going?
How long does it take to recharge once the batteries run flat? How
will you even recharge it at home if you live in an apartment? Can
you pull a boat or RV trailer with it? Can you haul a heavy load of
tools or parts to a job in the next state with it? How long will
the batteries last and how much will they cost to replace?
I am not particularly impressed by hybrids either. All that complex
array of technology in a Prius to deliver essentially the same miles
per gallon as a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel. I'm underwhelmed.
Feh. Until a miracle in battery technology or some other type of
mobile electrical source comes into play (such as the fictional
"Mister Fusion" of "Back to the Future" fame) electric vehicles
will remain at best overpriced, short-range, limited-use items
suitable if anything only for short inner-city runs and as status
symbols that imbecilic enviro-weenies use to make themselves
feel good.
> I just don't see in in my lifetime, which
> I hope to be at least 20 or 30 more years.
Same here.
> In 1902, many people thought the horseless carriage was just a novelty and
> man would never fly.
Oh, I know it is "possible." However it will never be "practical"
unless there is a dramatic improvement in battery technology. This
has been sought for the last 40 years (at least) and there has been
remarkably little progress in that area. It's taken that long to
get from "utterly and completely unpractical" to "barely usable in
a limited set of circumstances."
We may ultimately get to something that actually has the flexibility
and usefulness of an internal-combustion powered vehicle but I do
not believe it is likely in my lifetime.
Even if and when such a thing is developed the many millions of gas
and diesel powered vehicles will not disappear overnight. Not
everyone will be willing or able to go out and buy an expensive
new electric vehicle. Unlike other technology-driven items such as
computers, cameras, and home entertainment, cars and trucks will
remain high-ticket items that, unless one is wealthy, cannot simply
be discarded and replaced on a whim.
So to reiterate, yes, I fully expect to still be filling up my
gasoline-powered car at a filling station in 20 years time.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled)
"Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental
protection... the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually
an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's
resources will be negotiated." -- Ottmar Edenhofer, IPCC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 5 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 5:11 am
From: Bjorn
On 3 mar, 12:42, Roger Blake <rogbl...@iname.invalid> wrote:
> On 2011-03-02, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>
> > I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
> > grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that
> > want to show they are green.
>
> Yes, they are merely status symbols for ecofreaks who want to pretend
> they are "saving the planet." (Hint to stoopid hippies: "the planet"
> does not need saving! But I digress...)
>
> Internal combustion is a tried and true, practical method of providing
> execellent measures of power and range for a vehicle that can be used
> for a vast array of purposes in a wide range of environments. "Recharging"
> is easily accomplished in a few minutes at a fueling station.
>
> How far will your electric car go on the freeway on a hot, rainy
> summer night with the lights, wipers, and air conditioning going?
> How long does it take to recharge once the batteries run flat? How
> will you even recharge it at home if you live in an apartment? Can
> you pull a boat or RV trailer with it? Can you haul a heavy load of
> tools or parts to a job in the next state with it? How long will
> the batteries last and how much will they cost to replace?
>
> I am not particularly impressed by hybrids either. All that complex
> array of technology in a Prius to deliver essentially the same miles
> per gallon as a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel. I'm underwhelmed.
>
> Feh. Until a miracle in battery technology or some other type of
> mobile electrical source comes into play (such as the fictional
> "Mister Fusion" of "Back to the Future" fame) electric vehicles
> will remain at best overpriced, short-range, limited-use items
> suitable if anything only for short inner-city runs and as status
> symbols that imbecilic enviro-weenies use to make themselves
> feel good.
>
> > I just don't see in in my lifetime, which
> > I hope to be at least 20 or 30 more years.
>
> Same here.
>
> > In 1902, many people thought the horseless carriage was just a novelty and
> > man would never fly.
>
> Oh, I know it is "possible." However it will never be "practical"
> unless there is a dramatic improvement in battery technology. This
> has been sought for the last 40 years (at least) and there has been
> remarkably little progress in that area. It's taken that long to
> get from "utterly and completely unpractical" to "barely usable in
> a limited set of circumstances."
>
> We may ultimately get to something that actually has the flexibility
> and usefulness of an internal-combustion powered vehicle but I do
> not believe it is likely in my lifetime.
>
> Even if and when such a thing is developed the many millions of gas
> and diesel powered vehicles will not disappear overnight. Not
> everyone will be willing or able to go out and buy an expensive
> new electric vehicle. Unlike other technology-driven items such as
> computers, cameras, and home entertainment, cars and trucks will
> remain high-ticket items that, unless one is wealthy, cannot simply
> be discarded and replaced on a whim.
>
> So to reiterate, yes, I fully expect to still be filling up my
> gasoline-powered car at a filling station in 20 years time.
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
> Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)
>
> "Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental
> protection... the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually
> an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's
> resources will be negotiated." -- Ottmar Edenhofer, IPCC
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
The oil shortage and ever increasing demand is vastly surpassing
supply resultin in ever higher prices.
It is more a question if there will be any stations for you to get oil
in 20 years time so the situation with electrics will be reversed.
You can charge an electric vehicle anywhere there is electricity and
that is most anywhere and you will not need to look for a special
station for it.
Most people have electricity at home.
The US has been sleeping while Europe has been planning for this for
many years.
Hybrids may have a place in history but even they are too complex and
too expensive.
Volt is a hybrid even if it has been branded as an electric.
Electrical vehicles predate the combustion vehicles and they are
taking over even if the production capacity is low at the moment and
it will take a long time to replace the old technology.
It is really amazing though how much has happened in recent months in
this area.
The warning signs have been around for decades but many people are
blind and noone is as blind as a man who does not want to see.
Unfortunately for many people the whole system around them is based on
driving around every day for everything.
So not only do we need to change all our thinking from oil to electric
in our cars we need to get better public transport and rearrange where
and how we live and all of that will take time.
It would have been better for the citizens of the US if this would
have started sooner and having to do it now when they are forced to do
it because the scarcity and price of oil.
Europe has been at it for decades to improve public transport and
raised the price of oil with taxes to get people prepared for the
future so this price hike coming now is not as much of a problem for
us in Europe and just take a look at this years geneva motor show and
you will see a lot of electrical cars available.
== 6 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 5:03 am
From: Clive
In message <qqydncs5QfwoTfPQnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Ed Pawlowski
<esp@snetnospam.net> writes
>Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that want to show
>they are green. One day though, they may become practical and useable
>by many daily commuters.
I don't see that they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be
generated somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric
cars do is move the pollution to a different district.
--
Clive
== 7 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 5:44 am
From: Roger Blake
On 2011-03-03, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't see that they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be
> generated somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric
> cars do is move the pollution to a different district.
For the idiot greenies that is sufficent for them to feel good
about themselves and lord it over the rest of us.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled)
"Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental
protection... the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually
an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's
resources will be negotiated." -- Ottmar Edenhofer, IPCC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 8 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 5:44 am
From: "hls"
"Clive" <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message > I don't see that
they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be
> generated somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric
> cars do is move the pollution to a different district.
> --
> Clive
>
Our electrical generation plants are for the most part coal fired in the
USA. This process may be as cheap as we have but is not as good
as it gets.
There is some hydroelectric, of course, but not as in Scandinavia.
And, we shut the door on atomic power plants a long time back. It
will take time to make up the lost ground, if we even reopen that
technology.
We are diddling with wind power and solar, but that is also in its
early stages.
I dont see that there is any clear answer, especially in a country
where no one wants to cooperate with anyone else, and where the
government is run by buffoons with their hands out.
== 9 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 6:38 am
From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
dsi1 <dsi1@usenet-news.net> wrote:
>
>I suspect that this will move faster than you think - at least the
>potential is there. It all hinges on a battery capacity that's better
>than what's available today. Once that point in battery development is
>reached, change will be rapid. Just a guess.
The problem is that this was the state we were in around 1920, when
electric cars were very popular for driving around town, but severely
limited in range by the lead-acid batteries.
Today battery density is a whole lot better than it was in 1920, but
it's still the limiting factor in spite of a whole lot of research.
>The electric car would seem to be dead simple as far as manufacturing
>goes - just junk everything connected with the engine, fuel system,
>ignition system, transmission, exhaust system and keep everything else.
>My guess is that a electric motor is going to be lighter and simpler and
>cheaper than a piston engine - a lot cheaper.
Right. The fancy stuff is all in the drive electronics and the charge
electronics, and electronics have become very cheap. "Anything made of
silicon will eventually cost a dime" as an instructor of mine used to say.
The only part that is expensive and difficult with current technology is
the battery, but that still remains a big deal.
>If history has taught us anything, it is that technology drives change
>whether we're ready for it or not. The reality of this world is that the
>majority of drivers are not piston-lovin' speed-freaking gear-heads.
>Most folks just want to get in a car and get to where they want to go
>with a minimum of fuss - they don't give a crap about internal or
>external combustion or electric or hampster power.
Sure, but the other thing history has taught us is that most people who
make predictions about the future are wrong. So I try to refrain from
making predictions, especially when my own money is involved.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
== 10 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 6:41 am
From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <qqydncs5QfwoTfPQnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Ed Pawlowski
><esp@snetnospam.net> writes
>>Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that want to show
>>they are green. One day though, they may become practical and useable
>>by many daily commuters.
>
>I don't see that they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be
>generated somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric
>cars do is move the pollution to a different district.
And/or move it to a different material, yes. But that's something useful
and important.
You also do get a little more efficiency from the electric because the
electric motor is about as efficient at delivering low power as it is
at full throttle, but the transmission losses may make up for that.
That's why money needs to be invested in reducing transmission losses and
cleaner power production as well as in batteries. These things don't just
benefit drivers either, they benefit all electric power users.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
== 11 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 7:52 am
From: Vinnie
Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2011-03-02, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>> I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
>> grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that
>> want to show they are green.
>
> Yes, they are merely status symbols for ecofreaks who want to pretend
> they are "saving the planet." (Hint to stoopid hippies: "the planet"
> does not need saving! But I digress...)
>
> Internal combustion is a tried and true, practical method of providing
> execellent measures of power and range for a vehicle that can be used
> for a vast array of purposes in a wide range of environments. "Recharging"
> is easily accomplished in a few minutes at a fueling station.
>
But, but, but, that Tin Lizzie won't go up that thar muddy path over
yonder like my 'ol Nellie.
And besides, why should I look around for that expensive gas-o-line
fluid when grass and hay is free? Oats is cheap too.
> How far will your electric car go on the freeway on a hot, rainy
> summer night with the lights, wipers, and air conditioning going?
For the Volt as far as you want to go.
On all electric, probably about 25-30 miles.
Then the IC engine kicks in.
> How long does it take to recharge once the batteries run flat?
Volt batteries don't go flat. IC engine kicks in before that happens.
Recharge to 100% and 25-50 mile range without IC takes 4-5 hours at 220V,
8-12 hours at 110V.
How
> will you even recharge it at home if you live in an apartment?
You don't buy a Volt unless you can recharge it.
Common sense prevails.
Can
> you pull a boat or RV trailer with it?
You buy a gas guzzler for that.
Again, common sense prevails.
Can you haul a heavy load of
> tools or parts to a job in the next state with it?
Why would you do that?
You can do that with a beat up $500 Toyota Corolla.
Why pay +$30k for an electric?
And yet once again, common sense is victorious.
How long will
> the batteries last and how much will they cost to replace?
>
8 year, 100K mile warranty for the Volt. Same for the Leaf.
Nobody knows what they will cost to replace.
The Prius has fostered a battery aftermarket and from my reading a reman
can cost as low as $1300, and new costs $2200.
Sometimes only a cell module needs replacement.
Economy of scale and market forces will rule.
How long does the engine in a Camry last?
How much will it cost to replace it?
Anyway, why do you care about battery cost?
You've said you would never buy an electric car.
> I am not particularly impressed by hybrids either. All that complex
> array of technology in a Prius to deliver essentially the same miles
> per gallon as a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel. I'm underwhelmed.
>
This is for you then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rs7XQK5yiM
BTW, for those who want to find the facts, owners are reporting their
real world experience. Just google GM Volt experience.
I'm waiting for the breakdowns on the side of the road or fires.
That's about the only thing that can kill the Volt in the short term.
When one of the "commercial" reviewers starts talking about how you can
get better "mileage" with a Prius, note how many miles they are running
on IC, and how much they are paying for gas and kwh.
I saw one such evaluation that used $2.38 in electric costs though the
national average is $1.38. To prove the Prius was better on "mileage."
They used the national average gas price - at the time - $2.92.
Anybody here paying $2.92 for gas?
Pretty shallow article overall.
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1633/hyped-hybrid-the-chevy-volt-gets-average-mileage-for-a-hybrid/
Oh, wait. Consumer Reports.
Let's be clear. Logic says you buy the Volt to run nearly always
electric. That means 25-50 miles a day.
If you can't do that, why would you buy it?
Doesn't make sense. The real point of the Volt is to not use gas.
The IC engine is there for range flexibility and so you don't have to
worry about stranding.
That's why the GM Volt is selling and Nissan Leaf and Tesla aren't.
> Feh. Until a miracle in battery technology or some other type of
> mobile electrical source comes into play (such as the fictional
> "Mister Fusion" of "Back to the Future" fame) electric vehicles
> will remain at best overpriced, short-range, limited-use items
> suitable if anything only for short inner-city runs and as status
> symbols that imbecilic enviro-weenies use to make themselves
> feel good.
>
Yep, know the feeling.
I would shake my head in disgust when I saw people using those brick
cell phones and paying $3-400 per month for that crap.
>
> Oh, I know it is "possible." However it will never be "practical"
> unless there is a dramatic improvement in battery technology. This
> has been sought for the last 40 years (at least) and there has been
> remarkably little progress in that area. It's taken that long to
> get from "utterly and completely unpractical" to "barely usable in
> a limited set of circumstances."
>
There's been no real incentive to improve batteries to propel cars.
Looming $5.00 a gallon gas is now providing the incentive.
Paisan, open your eyes.
Battery technology has now advanced to where an major automaker is
selling all the Volts they can produce.
What you or I think or buy means nothing.
There's only one real question to be answered.
Can GM recover their investment, and make a profit on sales?
That's all that counts.
== 12 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 9:42 am
From: Mark
On Mar 2, 10:36 am, ben91932 <benteac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your points are all valid IMHO Vic.
> I commute 14 mile to work, which would cost me $1.50ish in electricity
> a day and would only need gas every couple of months.
> I have a Highlander to use for everything other than my commute.
> The Volt makes perfect sense for me, and I am anxious for the price to
> come down a bit so I can afford one.
> HTH,
> Ben
>
>
>
thats a good plan except for the way car insurance works, you will
have to pay for insurance for both vehicles and you will never save
enough gas to cover that cost......
if the gov't wants us to start using commuter cars for commuting, they
need to fix that problem.
Mark
== 13 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 10:09 am
From: Clive
In message <20110303121202@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
<rogblake@iname.invalid> writes
>I am not particularly impressed by hybrids either. All that complex
>array of technology in a Prius to deliver essentially the same miles
>per gallon as a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel. I'm underwhelmed.
Just think back to the days of side valved engines with carburators,
the mpg was lousy. Now with ohc and properly timed direct injection,
fuel economy has soared. A big source of fuel use is accelerating, by
using the braking to charge a battery which helps with the acceleration
a lot more fuel can be saved, hence the good milage of a hybrid.
>This
>has been sought for the last 40 years (at least) and there has been
>remarkably little progress in that area. It's taken that long to
>get from "utterly and completely unpractical" to "barely usable in
>a limited set of circumstances."
Batteries have come on by leaps and bounds since the big advance of the
mobile phone. I had one of the first digital phones this side of the
pond and it's life was about 8 hours on standby (Ni-Cad). Modern
phones have driven the technology so that they now last three to four
days between charges.
Even if batteries don't make the grade, hybridisation is a good idea,
and it's price will drop as mass-production increases and competition
from China forces the hand of the current major players.
--
Clive
== 14 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 12:43 pm
From: Clive
In message <20110302131420@news.eternal-september.org>, Roger Blake
<rogblake@iname.invalid> writes
>I can assure you that I will be still doing fillups at gas stations
>and changing motor oil in 20 years. The installed base is far too large
>to simply go away in that period of time. (You of course may elect
>to purchase some stoopid electic pregnant roller skate to run around
>if you desire. Just don't try to force me into one.)
At the moment we're paying $9.91 for an imperial gallon. When you
start paying those prices, you might have a change of heart.
--
Clive
== 15 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 12:48 pm
From: Roger Blake
On 2011-03-03, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> At the moment we're paying $9.91 for an imperial gallon. When you
> start paying those prices, you might have a change of heart.
That's because you permit your government to impose punitive taxes
on gasoline. Americans may not be quite as complacent about such
a move. In any event, even if gas prices rose to European socialist
levels here I would still not purchase a hybrid or electric vehicle.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled)
"Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental
protection... the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually
an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's
resources will be negotiated." -- Ottmar Edenhofer, IPCC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 16 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 12:53 pm
From: Roger Blake
On 2011-03-03, Clive <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Just think back to the days of side valved engines with carburators,
> the mpg was lousy.
I don't care much about mileage. My current vehicle gets about 15 mpg
and I'm perfectly happy with that.
However, something like a 1960 Rambler American with side-valve
carbureted engine and overdrive transmission is capable of mileage
in the 30 mpg range.
> fuel economy has soared. A big source of fuel use is accelerating, by
I have a 30-year-old Popular Science magazine with "10 40-mpg imported cars"
on the cover. There are not many that get much better than that.
> Batteries have come on by leaps and bounds since the big advance of the
> mobile phone.
They still have a long way to go to be practical for an all-electric
vehicle.
> Even if batteries don't make the grade, hybridisation is a good idea,
I do not believe that is the case. As I've said, I would not purchase one.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled)
"Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental
protection... the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually
an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's
resources will be negotiated." -- Ottmar Edenhofer, IPCC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
== 17 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 2:15 pm
From: dsi1
On 3/3/2011 8:09 AM, Clive wrote:
> Even if batteries don't make the grade, hybridisation is a good idea,
> and it's price will drop as mass-production increases and competition
> from China forces the hand of the current major players.
The Hybrid is a bad idea because it's more complex than a conventional
automobile or a full electric. However, hybrids are a needed step if
most of us are going to transition to full electric. Ha ha, I have to
say "most of us" on this newsgroup.
My Sonata has a wonderful engine - it's a V6 with double overhead cams
and variable valve timing and it's smooth as silk with a lot of guts but
I'd like to think that simpler is always better. That engine is
fiendishly complex. An electric motor is a simple beast capable of high
torque almost instantly and doesn't need an ignition or fuel system, has
no valves or variable timing or sprockets or timing chain or lubrication
system or oil changes or leaky valve covers or oil filters or exhaust
system or water cooling, no cold start or PVC valves or starter needed.
The reality is that something so complex is going to require a lot of
maintenance and troubleshooting can be a problem if something goes
wrong. For more info on this, just read the posts here.
An all electric car's drive system is gonna be a no brainer. The control
system is going to be pretty sophisticated but my guess is that you'll
just pull the box out and replace it if there's any problems. As it
goes, living with an automobile should be a lot easier. People in the
future will be surprised at how much we had to put up with in the
internal combustion engine.
== 18 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 2:21 pm
From: "Ed Pawlowski"
"Clive" <clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:QxYyr$ANG5bNFwHH@yewbank.demon.co.uk...
> In message <qqydncs5QfwoTfPQnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Ed Pawlowski
> <esp@snetnospam.net> writes
>>Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that want to show they
>>are green. One day though, they may become practical and useable by many
>>daily commuters.
> I don't see that they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be generated
> somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric cars do is
> move the pollution to a different district.
> --
> Clive
>
In theory, it may be more efficient to generate electricity and move it to
the car battery. The gasoline engine is not very good at extracting all the
power out of a gallon of fuel, so if a better converter is available, it may
help. I say "in theory" because I have no idea of the efficiency of a coal
plant. Nuclear may be better, as is hydro. Perhaps some slick new turbine
is better at extracting power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency
Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of 37%. Even when aided with
turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average
efficiency of about 18%-20%.[10][11] Rocket engine efficiencies are better
still, up to 70%, because they combust at very high temperatures and
pressures and are able to have very high expansion ratios.[12]
== 19 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 2:31 pm
From: Clive
In message <4d701306$0$27692$882e7ee2@usenet-news.net>, dsi1
<dsi1@usenet-news.net> writes
> An electric motor is a simple beast capable of high torque almost
>instantly and doesn't need an ignition or fuel system, has no valves or
>variable timing or sprockets or timing chain or lubrication system or
>oil changes or leaky valve covers or oil filters or exhaust system or
>water cooling, no cold start or PVC valves or starter needed.
Electric motors generate a lot of heat, especially at low revs and high
torque. Are you proposing forced ventilation, self ventilation or
water cooling?
--
Clive
== 20 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 2:51 pm
From: AMuzi
Clive wrote:
> In message <qqydncs5QfwoTfPQnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Ed Pawlowski
> <esp@snetnospam.net> writes
>> Right now, they are very expensive toys for people that want to show
>> they are green. One day though, they may become practical and useable
>> by many daily commuters.
> I don't see that they're "green" at all. Electricity has to be
> generated somewhere and that generator uses fuel, all driving electric
> cars do is move the pollution to a different district.
It sells because most people think electricity comes from a
little stream in Wisconsin.
Electricity is primarily from coal.
Regarding dams, we've been ripping those out for years. The
contribution from hydroelectric power is lower than in the
1940s.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
== 21 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 3:06 pm
From: dsi1
On Mar 3, 12:31 pm, Clive <cl...@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d701306$0$27692$882e7...@usenet-news.net>, dsi1
> <d...@usenet-news.net> writes> An electric motor is a simple beast capable of high torque almost
> >instantly and doesn't need an ignition or fuel system, has no valves or
> >variable timing or sprockets or timing chain or lubrication system or
> >oil changes or leaky valve covers or oil filters or exhaust system or
> >water cooling, no cold start or PVC valves or starter needed.
>
> Electric motors generate a lot of heat, especially at low revs and high
> torque. Are you proposing forced ventilation, self ventilation or
> water cooling?
> --
> Clive
My guess is that most cars will have passive cooling with liquid
cooling for high performance cars. Just my guess.
== 22 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 3:10 pm
From: AMuzi
Vinnie wrote:
> Roger Blake wrote:
>> On 2011-03-02, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>>> I can assure you I won't own one either, but perhaps my children or
>>> grandchildren will. Right now, they are very expensive toys for
>>> people that want to show they are green.
>>
>> Yes, they are merely status symbols for ecofreaks who want to pretend
>> they are "saving the planet." (Hint to stoopid hippies: "the planet"
>> does not need saving! But I digress...)
>>
>> Internal combustion is a tried and true, practical method of providing
>> execellent measures of power and range for a vehicle that can be used
>> for a vast array of purposes in a wide range of environments.
>> "Recharging"
>> is easily accomplished in a few minutes at a fueling station.
>>
>
> But, but, but, that Tin Lizzie won't go up that thar muddy path over
> yonder like my 'ol Nellie.
> And besides, why should I look around for that expensive gas-o-line
> fluid when grass and hay is free? Oats is cheap too.
>
>> How far will your electric car go on the freeway on a hot, rainy
>> summer night with the lights, wipers, and air conditioning going?
>
> For the Volt as far as you want to go.
> On all electric, probably about 25-30 miles.
> Then the IC engine kicks in.
>
>> How long does it take to recharge once the batteries run flat?
>
> Volt batteries don't go flat. IC engine kicks in before that happens.
> Recharge to 100% and 25-50 mile range without IC takes 4-5 hours at 220V,
> 8-12 hours at 110V.
>
> How
>> will you even recharge it at home if you live in an apartment?
>
> You don't buy a Volt unless you can recharge it.
> Common sense prevails.
>
> Can
>> you pull a boat or RV trailer with it?
>
> You buy a gas guzzler for that.
> Again, common sense prevails.
>
> Can you haul a heavy load of
>> tools or parts to a job in the next state with it?
>
> Why would you do that?
> You can do that with a beat up $500 Toyota Corolla.
> Why pay +$30k for an electric?
> And yet once again, common sense is victorious.
>
>
> How long will
>> the batteries last and how much will they cost to replace?
>>
>
> 8 year, 100K mile warranty for the Volt. Same for the Leaf.
> Nobody knows what they will cost to replace.
> The Prius has fostered a battery aftermarket and from my reading a reman
> can cost as low as $1300, and new costs $2200.
> Sometimes only a cell module needs replacement.
> Economy of scale and market forces will rule.
> How long does the engine in a Camry last?
> How much will it cost to replace it?
> Anyway, why do you care about battery cost?
> You've said you would never buy an electric car.
>
>> I am not particularly impressed by hybrids either. All that complex
>> array of technology in a Prius to deliver essentially the same miles
>> per gallon as a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel. I'm underwhelmed.
>>
>
> This is for you then.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rs7XQK5yiM
> BTW, for those who want to find the facts, owners are reporting their
> real world experience. Just google GM Volt experience.
> I'm waiting for the breakdowns on the side of the road or fires.
> That's about the only thing that can kill the Volt in the short term.
>
> When one of the "commercial" reviewers starts talking about how you can
> get better "mileage" with a Prius, note how many miles they are running
> on IC, and how much they are paying for gas and kwh.
> I saw one such evaluation that used $2.38 in electric costs though the
> national average is $1.38. To prove the Prius was better on "mileage."
> They used the national average gas price - at the time - $2.92.
> Anybody here paying $2.92 for gas?
> Pretty shallow article overall.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1633/hyped-hybrid-the-chevy-volt-gets-average-mileage-for-a-hybrid/
>
> Oh, wait. Consumer Reports.
> Let's be clear. Logic says you buy the Volt to run nearly always
> electric. That means 25-50 miles a day.
> If you can't do that, why would you buy it?
> Doesn't make sense. The real point of the Volt is to not use gas.
> The IC engine is there for range flexibility and so you don't have to
> worry about stranding.
> That's why the GM Volt is selling and Nissan Leaf and Tesla aren't.
>
>> Feh. Until a miracle in battery technology or some other type of
>> mobile electrical source comes into play (such as the fictional
>> "Mister Fusion" of "Back to the Future" fame) electric vehicles
>> will remain at best overpriced, short-range, limited-use items
>> suitable if anything only for short inner-city runs and as status
>> symbols that imbecilic enviro-weenies use to make themselves
>> feel good.
>>
>
> Yep, know the feeling.
> I would shake my head in disgust when I saw people using those brick
> cell phones and paying $3-400 per month for that crap.
>
>>
>> Oh, I know it is "possible." However it will never be "practical"
>> unless there is a dramatic improvement in battery technology. This
>> has been sought for the last 40 years (at least) and there has been
>> remarkably little progress in that area. It's taken that long to
>> get from "utterly and completely unpractical" to "barely usable in
>> a limited set of circumstances."
>>
>
> There's been no real incentive to improve batteries to propel cars.
> Looming $5.00 a gallon gas is now providing the incentive.
> Paisan, open your eyes.
> Battery technology has now advanced to where an major automaker is
> selling all the Volts they can produce.
> What you or I think or buy means nothing.
> There's only one real question to be answered.
> Can GM recover their investment, and make a profit on sales?
> That's all that counts.
>
" major automaker is selling all the Volts they can produce."
Obama Motors is selling 25,000 of the first 2 years (30,000)
Volts to GE which is headed by Obama's new BFF Imelt.
Nice sale! Probably a tough negotiation in there someplace.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
== 23 of 23 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 3:45 pm
From: Clive
In message
<01ef9486-40ae-4f31-914d-d6dd56ee619a@l14g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
dsi1 <david123iwaoka@gmail.com> writes
>passive cooling
New term on me. What is it?
--
Clive
==============================================================================
TOPIC: NSK & Koyo bearings* wear >30x as fast as NTN *.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/9143f59dd7403d10?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 2 2011 10:15 pm
From: "TE Cheah" <4ws@gmail.com>
After just 1500 km use of each of 2 new NSK & Koyo * ( tight when
fitted in 8-10 & 5-09, with Bardahl synthetic oil & fullerene added in )
on my Proton Saga's right rear wheel, these * are already loose ( i.e.
brake drum can wobble ) ! My NTN * are tight even after 10000 km use.
1 mechanical engineer says these 2 manufacturers likely save money &
time on hardening ( heating & cooling ) of steel used.
These NSK & Koyo ( fr Japan ) * are inferior, & should be banned to
avoid their fast wear & failure.( can cause accidents ).
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Help! Stalling problem the mechancs can't figure out. (I'm desperate!)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/t/818559d7320695b3?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 3 2011 12:44 am
From: "TE Cheah" <4ws@gmail.com>
| battery doesn't seem to get more charged by long drives as it
| should. Just the opposite, it's getting drained.
Connect a voltmeter to ( e.g. cig lighter socket ) see alternator*'s output
voltage which if too low ( <13v ) @ >1000 rpm, then * is bad.
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