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* Toyota says no evidence 'runaway' Prius happened - 24 messages, 11 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/8c002a7a54dcca97?hl=en
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TOPIC: Toyota says no evidence 'runaway' Prius happened
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/8c002a7a54dcca97?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 24 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 16 2010 9:50 pm
From: jim beam
On 03/16/2010 09:33 PM, Daniel who wants to know wrote:
> "AZ Nomad"<aznomad.3@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote in message
> news:slrnhq03dm.9n8.aznomad.3@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
>>
>> Do you have some insane notion that electric motors idle?
>
> The Prius has always had artificial creep (ICE running or not) for no other
> reason than to emulate a regular automatic transmission with a torque
> converter.
>
>
and useful it is too...
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 2 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 4:08 am
From: ACAR
On Mar 16, 8:00 pm, dr_jeff <u...@msu.edu> wrote:
wreckless endangerment.
well, he didn't wreck...
== 3 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 4:19 am
From: ACAR
On Mar 16, 10:36 am, Nasty <na...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
snip
> Then again, I live in Florida, seems like we
> have a lot of runaway cars of all makes and models. Interestingly high
> percentage of Cadillacs and Lincolns with VERY senior citizens. Remember
> now, this is all just MHO.
Actually, there's plenty of documentation re. driver age vs crashes.
Lots of news articles are now quoting crash statistics as the
spotlight moves from the cars to the drivers. So I guess we should
thank the faker for shifting the debate.
== 4 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 4:59 am
From: "Obveeus"
"AZ Nomad" <aznomad.3@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:00:41 -0400, dr_jeff <utz@msu.edu> wrote:
>>Cameo wrote:
>>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9D3DC4DEA22B6tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>>>
>>>> Or when you rip along at 90mph while rapidly alternating between gas
>>>> pedal
>>>> and brake pedal, which is what this Sikes fellow did.
>>>
>>> I wonder if that can be proven with enough confidence to sue the guy
>>> criminally. It would be no point to do that in civil court as he is a
>>> deadbeat.
>
>>First, we don't know if he did anything wrong. Innocent until proven
>>guilty.
>
>>Second, if he is guilty, there could charges of speeding, lying to
>>police and wreckless endangerment.
Charges for speeding and lying to police should be forthcoming. I'm not
sure what the laws in California are with respect to how much over the
posted speed limit a driver has to go before it becomes 'wreckless
endangerment'. Still, the police probably just want to see this incident
fade away from the front pages as quickly as possible given how they were
duped.
> perhaps some jail if he has done shit like this before as the wendy's
> finger-fraud lady did.
Apparently, he has twice filed insurance claims when short of funds. Those
insurance claims probably need another look given recent events.
== 5 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 5:12 am
From: dgk
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:04:24 -0500, pws <pwshelton@austin.rr.com>
wrote:
>tc wrote:
>>
>>
>> "pws" <pwshelton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:hnoqrp$pfo$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>>> "pws" <pwshelton@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hnopt3$mhb$2@speranza.aioe.org...
>>>>> Ray O wrote:
>>>>>> "dgk" <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:cmsup5do4n9dqf8fhgc41u84nvipe2ie6p@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:47:56 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>>>>>>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <4LednSrST467RAPWnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>>>>> dbu'' <nospam@nobama.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When this "runaway" accelertor problem happens, can't the
>>>>>>>>>> driver yank the
>>>>>>>>>> gear shift to neutral, and/or turn the ignition off?
>>>>>>>>> The Prius is unlike any conventional car. I don't believe it's
>>>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>>>> that simple.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> Toyota innovations are getting ahead of operator
>>>>>>>>> understanding of these vehicles.
>>>>>>>> Dude, SHIFTING TO NEUTRAL IS NOT A "TOYOTA INNOVATION". What the
>>>>>>>> fuck
>>>>>>>> is so hard to understand about this simple and oh-so-basic function?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For Sikes to have claimed that "I thought the car would flip if I
>>>>>>>> shifted to neutral" is enough for me to demand that he be taken
>>>>>>>> off the
>>>>>>>> road for the rest of his life.
>>>>>>> And that is the bottom line. I would worry that the engine might
>>>>>>> destroy itself if I shifted a runaway car into neutral, but given
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the other option is to smash into someone else at 90+ mph, I take
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> risk.
>>>>>> AFAIK, all fuel injected Toyotas have a rev limiter which cuts fuel
>>>>>> when the engine reaches just above redline on the tachometer.
>>>>> My parent's Camry has another rev limited, it's called my parents.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that they have ever hit the redline in anything.........
>>>>
>>>> So, a "tuneup" means let someone under 60 drive it for an hour? :-)
>>>
>>> You nailed it........Also, make that rev limiter, but everyone
>>> probably knew that already. :-)
>>>
>>> I would rather be on the road with your parents, than someone going
>>> 30+ mph over the speed limit and texting their girl or boy friend
>> the red line is there for a purpose, and if you do hit it I hope its
>> with a car you paid for not your parents. There is a lot to be said for
>> growing up and being responsible
>
>I'm pretty old, just one ticket in the last 15 years, never a serious
>accident, always insured, etc.
>Not too irresponsible as it applies to cars.
>
>I also have a car that has a fully adjustable redline. The engine was
>built to handle 8,000 rpm shifts without damage, and those shifts are
>not necessarily on a public road.
>
>Never have texted while driving though. I don't really text at all with
>my phone.
I did text once. I was at a conference with multiple simultaneous
tracks and thought that my boss should see the session I was in. So I
texted her rather than be distracting to the people around me. A few
minutes later she showed up.
My fourteen year old god-daughter, on the other hand, hit 15,000 in
one month. Now, that's incoming and outgoing but still, that's a lot
of messages. I really need to see a transcript but I won't live long
enough to read through 15,000 messages.
== 6 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 8:41 am
From: "E. Meyer"
On 3/17/10 6:59 AM, in article hnqg6g$l6f$1@news.eternal-september.org,
"Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "AZ Nomad" <aznomad.3@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:00:41 -0400, dr_jeff <utz@msu.edu> wrote:
>>> Cameo wrote:
>>>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns9D3DC4DEA22B6tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>>>>
>>>>> Or when you rip along at 90mph while rapidly alternating between gas
>>>>> pedal
>>>>> and brake pedal, which is what this Sikes fellow did.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if that can be proven with enough confidence to sue the guy
>>>> criminally. It would be no point to do that in civil court as he is a
>>>> deadbeat.
>>
>>> First, we don't know if he did anything wrong. Innocent until proven
>>> guilty.
>>
>>> Second, if he is guilty, there could charges of speeding, lying to
>>> police and wreckless endangerment.
>
> Charges for speeding and lying to police should be forthcoming. I'm not
> sure what the laws in California are with respect to how much over the
> posted speed limit a driver has to go before it becomes 'wreckless
> endangerment'. Still, the police probably just want to see this incident
> fade away from the front pages as quickly as possible given how they were
> duped.
How were the police duped? He made a 911 call and they responded. What
happens after that is for the investigators to figure out, which they are
trying to do.
>
>> perhaps some jail if he has done shit like this before as the wendy's
>> finger-fraud lady did.
>
> Apparently, he has twice filed insurance claims when short of funds. Those
> insurance claims probably need another look given recent events.
>
>
== 7 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 8:49 am
From: "Obveeus"
"E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
>> Charges for speeding and lying to police should be forthcoming. I'm not
>> sure what the laws in California are with respect to how much over the
>> posted speed limit a driver has to go before it becomes 'wreckless
>> endangerment'. Still, the police probably just want to see this incident
>> fade away from the front pages as quickly as possible given how they were
>> duped.
>
> How were the police duped? He made a 911 call and they responded. What
> happens after that is for the investigators to figure out, which they are
> trying to do.
They fueled the publicity for this guy's scam. They also took the attitude
afterward (just as the New York case has taken) that Toyota is some sort of
evil entity that needs to be kept away from these 'crime scenes'...as if
Toyota is only working to cover things up. Toyota and the NHTSA, like it or
not, are still more qualified to investigate this type of car issue than are
local police. the police became part of the propaganda machine...most
definitely duped by Sikes.
== 8 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:07 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <slrnhq03dm.9n8.aznomad.3@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net>,
AZ Nomad <aznomad.3@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote:
> >The gas motor may not be running when stopped if the battery is charged
> >but the car is still under battery power and if left on and in drive it
> >will walk away from you
>
> Do you have some insane notion that electric motors idle?
If left on and in drive, it will move away from you--just like how every
other car works.
Is this confusing to you? Toyota designed the Prius to ACT just like
every other car everyone has ever driven. It does that quite admirably,
frankly. They did a stupendous job.
== 9 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:08 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <hno443$r2n$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
> > Since the car doe NOT run when stopped (most of the time) yes it has been
> > known to happen...again maybe if you had ever driven one.
>
> Won't the car shut off when you open the door?
No.
== 10 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:09 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <hnoc3u$8ar$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
> > No. I have one. It WILL shift into neutral at any speed. It WILL turn off
> > by pressing the power button without shifting to park. It WILL operate at
> > or below the speed limit and can be operated without having a wreck so I
> > don't have to make up stories about it "running away on its own".
>
> So if a person drive into their driveway, presses the brake until they stop,
> then gets out of the car without shutting the car off (or pressing park),
> what stops it from 'running away'?
Nothing.
If it's in D, it will creep away just like any other car in the world.
== 11 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:10 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <hnoc3u$8ar$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
> I thought one of the safety features for the Prius was that getting out of
> the car (opening the door or moving the wireless key away from the vehicle
> at all) would shut it off. Is that only the 2010 model?
No.
*IF* you have the "wireless key" as you call it, it will not turn the
car off just because the "wireless key" goes out of range.
And, of course, they do sell a model WITHOUT the "wireless key". That's
a key that must be placed into the slot to make the power button work.
When the key is in the slot and the power is on, the key is locked in
and cannot be removed until you power the car off.
== 12 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:11 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <Xns9D3D791F416D0tegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
> I've never driven a Prius. Under what exact conditions does the thing
> actually run under battery power alone?
Sufficient battery power, light throttle (ie, light power demand), and
under 42mph.
== 13 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:15 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <4b9fd8b3$0$4884$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > I've never driven a Prius. Under what exact conditions does the thing
> > actually run under battery power alone?
> >
> >
>
> It has a system by which it monitors the battery charge level. It will
> run on the battery only at idle and up to about 25 mph with 'normal'
> acceleration. When the battery charge is reduced to a pre-set level the
> gas engine starts up automatically to charge it, or if you do a jack
> rabbit start from a stop it will start also. The thing apparently
> doesn't have a traditional starter. The gas motor just starts running
> when needed almost like an old fashioned jump start from a push and
> popping the clutch.
Everyone here needs to look up the Hybrid Synergy Drive and the center
of the magic, the Power Split Device.
Please refrain from speculating until you've read up on this.
== 14 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:21 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <cmsup5do4n9dqf8fhgc41u84nvipe2ie6p@4ax.com>,
dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:
> >For Sikes to have claimed that "I thought the car would flip if I
> >shifted to neutral" is enough for me to demand that he be taken off the
> >road for the rest of his life.
>
>
> And that is the bottom line. I would worry that the engine might
> destroy itself if I shifted a runaway car into neutral, but given that
> the other option is to smash into someone else at 90+ mph, I take that
> risk.
Understand that every car built in the last 20 years has a rev limiter
installed, which will prevent the engine from overrevving and destroying
itself. Worst case, any car with a condition that makes the gas engine
go to wide open throttle will simply end up with an engine that
"bounces" up and down off the rev limiter, as the cutout system kicks in
and out against whatever is causing the open throttle condition.
In short: put the fucking thing into neutral and coast to a halt, then
get out of the fucking car.
== 15 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 10:51 am
From: "Cameo"
"JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:DXUnn.12916$3D3.8872@newsfe19.iad...
> Well, what happened with that guy who claimed his kid floated away in
> a hot air balloon last year? Last headline I saw said something like
> "Authorities say charges pending."
That guy got convicted for misleading authorities.
== 16 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 6:24 pm
From: Nasty
AZ Nomad wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:27:46 -0400, Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>> "Justbob30" <NoThank@you.com> wrote in message
>>> news:hno406$9el$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:LFKnn.40001$_v6.22173@newsfe08.iad...
>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:elmop-3343C8.07475616032010@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>>>> In article <4LednSrST467RAPWnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>>> dbu'' <nospam@nobama.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When this "runaway" accelertor problem happens, can't the driver yank
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> gear shift to neutral, and/or turn the ignition off?
>>>>>>> The Prius is unlike any conventional car. I don't believe it's quite
>>>>>>> that simple.
>>>>>> see, you're representative of the public at large. You can't possibly
>>>>>> imagine that a Prius could behave like every other car in the
>>>>>> world--even though you've never owned or driven one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The driver can indeed yank the shifter into neutral and/or turn the car
>>>>>> off. Yanking into neutral is as easy as it is in a Buick--touch shift
>>>>>> lever, move to neutral.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you know what happens? Yeah. No drama. Drive system disengages,
>>>>>> gas engine stops running, car immediately starts slowing down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no conventional key, there might even be a delay
>>>>>>> in time for ignition off due to the electronics involved.
>>>>>> If you're using the power button, they've programmed it with a 3 second
>>>>>> delay. You'd know that if (a) you owned one, and (b) you bothered to
>>>>>> read the owner's manual of your shiny new $25,000 toy. Of course,
>>>>>> arrogant asses who claim they know everything about driving never bother
>>>>>> even to open or keep track of their owner's manual, let alone read it,
>>>>>> so they wouldn't know how their specific car operates. Even when they
>>>>>> get in and see that there's no key like in their '67 Buick, they never
>>>>>> bother to investigate how that power button works.
>>>>> So, when they arrive at their destination, they leave their Prius
>>>>> running?
>>>> Since the car doe NOT run when stopped (most of the time) yes it has been
>>>> known to happen...again maybe if you had ever driven one.
>
>> The gas motor may not be running when stopped if the battery is charged
>> but the car is still under battery power and if left on and in drive it
>> will walk away from you
>
> Do you have some insane notion that electric motors idle?
Wow. There really is no limit to stupidity. Do you know ANYTHING about a
Prius?
== 17 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 6:28 pm
From: Nasty
Tegger wrote:
> Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in news:4b9fd8b3$0$4884
> $9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
>
>> Tegger wrote:
>
>>> I've never driven a Prius. Under what exact conditions does the thing
>>> actually run under battery power alone?
>>>
>>>
>> It has a system by which it monitors the battery charge level. It will
>> run on the battery only at idle and up to about 25 mph with 'normal'
>> acceleration. When the battery charge is reduced to a pre-set level the
>> gas engine starts up automatically to charge it, or if you do a jack
>> rabbit start from a stop it will start also.
>
>
> Or when you rip along at 90mph while rapidly alternating between gas pedal
> and brake pedal, which is what this Sikes fellow did.
>
>
>
I think we need to add "get caught" between 'you' and 'rip[ing]'
== 18 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 6:29 pm
From: Nasty
Cameo wrote:
> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D3DC4DEA22B6tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>
>> Or when you rip along at 90mph while rapidly alternating between gas
>> pedal
>> and brake pedal, which is what this Sikes fellow did.
>
> I wonder if that can be proven with enough confidence to sue the guy
> criminally. It would be no point to do that in civil court as he is a
> deadbeat.
Do the onboard computers store that kind of data?
== 19 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 6:31 pm
From: Nasty
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <hnoc3u$8ar$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Obveeus" <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>> No. I have one. It WILL shift into neutral at any speed. It WILL turn off
>>> by pressing the power button without shifting to park. It WILL operate at
>>> or below the speed limit and can be operated without having a wreck so I
>>> don't have to make up stories about it "running away on its own".
>> So if a person drive into their driveway, presses the brake until they stop,
>> then gets out of the car without shutting the car off (or pressing park),
>> what stops it from 'running away'?
>
> Nothing.
>
> If it's in D, it will creep away just like any other car in the world.
Hey, are you under the insane...wait, I think we settled that a while back.
== 20 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 6:32 pm
From: Nasty
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <4b9fd8b3$0$4884$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
> Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>> I've never driven a Prius. Under what exact conditions does the thing
>>> actually run under battery power alone?
>>>
>>>
>> It has a system by which it monitors the battery charge level. It will
>> run on the battery only at idle and up to about 25 mph with 'normal'
>> acceleration. When the battery charge is reduced to a pre-set level the
>> gas engine starts up automatically to charge it, or if you do a jack
>> rabbit start from a stop it will start also. The thing apparently
>> doesn't have a traditional starter. The gas motor just starts running
>> when needed almost like an old fashioned jump start from a push and
>> popping the clutch.
>
> Everyone here needs to look up the Hybrid Synergy Drive and the center
> of the magic, the Power Split Device.
>
> Please refrain from speculating until you've read up on this.
Praise Jezuz and amen.
== 21 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 7:43 pm
From: Tegger
Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in
news:4ba180e1$0$4943$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
> AZ Nomad wrote:
>>
>> Do you have some insane notion that electric motors idle?
>
> Wow. There really is no limit to stupidity. Do you know ANYTHING about
> a Prius?
>
Never having driven a Prius, I'm dependent on others' descriptions of its
behavior.
I gather the Prius is set up so that it mimics a conventional car's
automatic transmission "creep" when at a standstill and in Drive. The
"creep" would be provided by activating the electric propulsion motor when
the brakes are released, the amount of activation being in inverse
proportion to foot pressure on the brake pedal.
--
Tegger
== 22 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 8:09 pm
From: "C. E. White"
"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:vbmdnYjSW9Z80z3WnZ2dnUVZ_hs_AAAA@speakeasy.net...
>> The power button actc differently when the vehicle is at reat. If the
>> car is stopped, pushing it once turns off the vehicle (you don't need
>> to hold it for three seconds). You only have to hold if for three
>> seconds if the car is moving.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>
> hey, committee that is "ed", this one got away without spell check. don't
> interns get supervised around your office?
Yes I make typos all the time. One of the computers I use won't spell check
Outlook Express posts (it could be fixed, but I keep putting off the fix).
When I have the time, I usually use a different program to check the
spelling, but I was in hurry when I wrote the referenced append. I saw the
error after the post was out of my control, but I figured 99.5% of all
humans would properly translate the typo without comment.
BTW, did you lose the shift key off your TRS80 Keyboard?
My interns are all female Swedish models and they were out getting some sun
yesterday.
Ed
== 23 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 8:41 pm
From: Nasty
Tegger wrote:
> Nasty <nasty@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in
> news:4ba180e1$0$4943$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
>
>> AZ Nomad wrote:
>
>>> Do you have some insane notion that electric motors idle?
>> Wow. There really is no limit to stupidity. Do you know ANYTHING about
>> a Prius?
>>
>
>
> Never having driven a Prius, I'm dependent on others' descriptions of its
> behavior.
>
> I gather the Prius is set up so that it mimics a conventional car's
> automatic transmission "creep" when at a standstill and in Drive. The
> "creep" would be provided by activating the electric propulsion motor when
> the brakes are released, the amount of activation being in inverse
> proportion to foot pressure on the brake pedal.
>
Tegger, my comment was NOT directed at you. Pleased be assured of that.
== 24 of 24 ==
Date: Wed, Mar 17 2010 8:54 pm
From: Scott in Florida
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:09:09 -0400, "C. E. White"
<cewhite3remove@mindspring.com> wrote:
>My interns are all female Swedish models and they were out getting some sun
>yesterday.
>
>Ed
Pictures at 11?????
--
Scott in Florida
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