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Today's topics:
* Exclusive Suzuki Swift 2010 review - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/4062b2323334af0b?hl=en
* TOYOTA SEZ IT HAS [another] FIX FOR PEDAL ... DO YOU BELIEVE IT? - 7
messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/b3778869cfbea966?hl=en
* BASE GTR vs ZR1 at the top gear track - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/7ae7632784e433a7?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exclusive Suzuki Swift 2010 review
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/4062b2323334af0b?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 4 2010 9:50 am
From: A
Exclusive Suzuki Swift 2010 review
http://carsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/01/hot-and-exclusive-review-of-suzuki.html
==============================================================================
TOPIC: TOYOTA SEZ IT HAS [another] FIX FOR PEDAL ... DO YOU BELIEVE IT?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/b3778869cfbea966?hl=en
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== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 7:19 am
From: Ed White
On Feb 3, 8:31 pm, Hachiroku ハチロク <Tru...@e86.GTS> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:33:19 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> > On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:20:27 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> >>On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:05:24 -0700, Ashton Crusher <d...@moore.net>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:38:11 -0800 (PST), slightly horny
> >>><lilhor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>Time to buy another BROOM?
>
> >>>>I kinda think the problem is more technologically related than just an
> >>>>ordinary "pedal."
>
> >>>>You?
>
> >>>>----------------------
> >>>>"Toyota tells dealers parts on way to fix pedals"
>
> >>>>By KEN THOMAS and TOM KRISHER
> >>>>The Associated Press
> >>>>Monday, February 1, 2010; 8:52 AM
>
> >>>>WASHINGTON -- Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday its dealers should get
> >>>>parts to fix a sticky gas pedal problem by the end of this week as the
> >>>>automaker apologized to customers and tried to bring an end to a recall
> >>>>that has affected 4.2 million vehicles worldwide.
>
> >>>>Tammy Darvish, a dealer in the Washington, D.C., area, said she expects
> >>>>to get parts Thursday night or Friday morning, and her dealership will
> >>>>begin repairs immediately, staying open around the clock.
>
> >>>>Darvish said she has set up a 24-hour hotline for her 30,000 Toyota
> >>>>customers and had already begun to schedule appointments for later this
> >>>>week. She estimated it could take about two weeks for all the vehicles
> >>>>to be fixed.
>
> >>>>"No matter what Toyota does, they always do it right," Darvish said.
> >>>>"They might be a little slow in coming out, but that's because they're
> >>>>diligent."
>
> >>>If they "always do it right" they would not have this problem. Nor
> >>>would they have locks that burn up and trap the people inside and burn
> >>>them up too. Or sludged up engines. Or bad head gaskets.
>
> >>EVERYBODY has bad head gaskets. Not a manufacturer in the business that
> >>uses head gaskets hasn't had a problem. Electrical problems are far from
> >>strictly a Toyota problem. More FORDS have burned from bad electrics than
> >>Toyotas - and many more have had less spectacular electrical failures.
> >>Also engine sludging is not a Toyota Specific problem - or even Japanese
> >>specific - and vehicles serviced by the "extreme conditions" oil change
> >>schedule do NOT SLUDGE, whether Toyota, Honda, or Chrysler.
>
> > So? No one disputes that except the guy I quoted for his silly statement
> > that they, Toyota, "always do it right". It's rather ironic to make such
> > a claim in a story about something they got so wrong.
>
> The problem is with cars made with a US sourced accelerator pedal.
> So far, Japanese made vehicles with Japan sourced pedals don't exhibit the
> problem.
>
> Have a look here:
>
> http://www.ctscorp.com/
>
> And then here:
>
> http://www.globaldenso.com/en/
>
> Denso supplied pedals to not exhibit the problem.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
And CTS didn't supply pedals to the Prius and Lexus models that are
alleged to have acceleration problems. So what can we take from this?
Maybe the problem isn't the pedals after all? Or I suppose we can
agree that Toyota bought defective peal assemblies from CTS for years
after being warned there was a problem and took no corrective action?
Or maybe this is the typical Toyota practice of trying to shift
responsibily to another party . Since blaming their Customers in this
case didn't work, Toyota had to move on tho trying to shift blame to a
supplier. Even you have to admit Toyota has screwed this up big time.
They were warned about this problem for at least 3 years and did
nothing. Maybe the CTs pedals are defective, but Toyota bought them
for years after they were warned of the problem. How you spin that
into making Toyota the "good guy." Don't you get tired of defending a
company that appears to routinely lie to Federal Investigators and
shift blame to their Customers?
Ed
== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 7:54 am
From: me
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:48:16 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>Does Toyota make mistakes? Do they sometimes handle them differently
>than an "american" company might? Is the pope Catholic???
Toyota denies all problems that have potential widespread repair cost
or potential human liability concerns until they become so flagrant
and the uproar so great that they can no longer deny them.
The did it with sludge problem, denying it was their responsibility
and claiming that it would not happen if the owner changed oil
regularly. Then enough documented cases of where the owner HAD changed
the oil regularly and HAD documentation and proved that it still
happens under proper maintenance. Even so, despite having had it
PROVED that the problem was NOT directly tied to incorrect oil change
frequency, Toyota still refused to pay for the extraordinary repairs
to any car where the owner could not produce detailed documentation of
changes. Nice policy.
Next we had the truck frame problem... more denials, until the uproar
became deafening. Now we have the accelerator problem, very wide
spread, and Toyota again denies any responsibility (for years) until
every excuse they have come up with is proven wrong and the problem
grows to most all their car lines.
I had my own experience with Toyota's policy of "deny everything" back
in the mid 80's. My $300 warranty claim was denied by corporate and I
quickly worked my way to the regional director. He refused to discuss
the specific issue, but instead repeatedly read me a letter from the
corporate lawyers denying responsibility. The issue was not the
validity of my $300 warranty claim, it was the fact that it exposed
Toyota to admitting to improper design in an area where loss of life
was a serious possibility.
>But they still, on the whole, build an exceptional product line, if
>not terribly exciting - and have provided much better customer
>service, overall, than any of the big 3 domestics over the last 30
>years.
This isn's about the "big three". We all know they suck. This is about
Toyota and their real colors showing, again and again. "We build a
great product - unless there's a design defect that will cost us big -
then you are on your own, sucker".
== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 3:10 pm
From: clare@snyder.on.ca
On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 10:54:25 -0500, me <noemail@nothere.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:48:16 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>Does Toyota make mistakes? Do they sometimes handle them differently
>>than an "american" company might? Is the pope Catholic???
>
>Toyota denies all problems that have potential widespread repair cost
>or potential human liability concerns until they become so flagrant
>and the uproar so great that they can no longer deny them.
>
>The did it with sludge problem, denying it was their responsibility
>and claiming that it would not happen if the owner changed oil
>regularly. Then enough documented cases of where the owner HAD changed
>the oil regularly and HAD documentation and proved that it still
>happens under proper maintenance. Even so, despite having had it
>PROVED that the problem was NOT directly tied to incorrect oil change
>frequency, Toyota still refused to pay for the extraordinary repairs
>to any car where the owner could not produce detailed documentation of
>changes. Nice policy.
>
>Next we had the truck frame problem... more denials, until the uproar
>became deafening. Now we have the accelerator problem, very wide
>spread, and Toyota again denies any responsibility (for years) until
>every excuse they have come up with is proven wrong and the problem
>grows to most all their car lines.
>
>I had my own experience with Toyota's policy of "deny everything" back
>in the mid 80's. My $300 warranty claim was denied by corporate and I
>quickly worked my way to the regional director. He refused to discuss
>the specific issue, but instead repeatedly read me a letter from the
>corporate lawyers denying responsibility. The issue was not the
>validity of my $300 warranty claim, it was the fact that it exposed
>Toyota to admitting to improper design in an area where loss of life
>was a serious possibility.
Well, I've had different experience with Toyota than you have - from
the other side, albeit quite a few years ago.
I was a dealer service manager.
Warranty on Toyotas was a WHOLE LOT EASIER than it was on American
stuff at that time.
As service manager I had a lot of "discression" - If it was a problem
I fixed it and fought with Toyota Canada if I had to. I can't remember
ever losing the arguement.
There WAS a cultural thing - no "whitey"- particularly a simple
mechanic - could ever tell a Jap - particularly an engineer - how to
fix something.
I made a lot of suggestions - and showed how I had fixed certain
problems - and eventually a little Jap engineer would come up with a
fix for the problem - which very often was the fix I had come up with
- but now it was the Jap Engineer's fix.
>
>>But they still, on the whole, build an exceptional product line, if
>>not terribly exciting - and have provided much better customer
>>service, overall, than any of the big 3 domestics over the last 30
>>years.
>
>This isn's about the "big three". We all know they suck. This is about
>Toyota and their real colors showing, again and again. "We build a
>great product - unless there's a design defect that will cost us big -
>then you are on your own, sucker".
And I dissagree there too. At least to a point.
When a problem shows up and is proven, they come up with a fix - and
they fix it. If under warranty, at their expense. If not, it depends
what the problem is and what the fix is - not what it is going to cost
them. Some of the more expensive solutions were covered, with a lot
less fuss than some of the cheeper ones.
Their solution of buying back and scrapping pickups with possible bad
frames is more expensive than supplying replacement frames on the long
run - but it gets the "problem" solved permanently.
Now the BIG question- - - - - -
IS the pedal sticking the WHOLE problem with the throttle systems???
It is definitely PART of the problem, and I trust the fix they have
come up with will solve THAT problem. And it is a very simple fix .
Is there a deeper problem???? Perhaps - but untill that problem is :
1 - confirmed
and
2- isolated and identified
it cannot be addressed. Just like the pedal problem.
When it IS confirmed and it IS isolated and identified, you can be
sure it WILL be addressed and repaired. And the repair for THAT
problem, whatever it proves to be, will also be done right.
At this point they could dig into and rewrite all the code for the
controller and just make it WORSE instead of better, not knowing what,
if any, problem exists in the code.
They could add layers of protection to hide whatever the problem is -
and just mask it untill it becomes even worse because the real cause
is ignored. Toyota does not do it that way, generally speaking.. They
want to identify what REALLY is wrong and solve the problem at the
source. Generally the most cost effective as well as the most
effective way overall to solve a problem - and learn from it so THAT
problem won't catch them again.
== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 3:46 pm
From: Clive
In message <gmmjm5dvq4h0uv026p7dp49eofj85fb17m@4ax.com>,
clare@snyder.on.ca writes
>My experience too. But you can add Mitsubishi in with Nissan and GM.
>Mazda is closer to Ford the last few years, pulling ahead of Nissan
>and GM. Honda is somewhere in around Chrysler/Toyota
Mitsubishi for years sold cars with defective brakes, even the board of
directors knew about it, eventually they all were put on trial. Nissan
is owned/shared with Renault a company that regularly under-performs in
the reliability stakes, luckily my Nissan predates the tie up. Mazda
is a ford and if you look hard enough you'll see all the Ford parts but
Mazda names. Chrysler is in a league of it's own in unreliability,
whilst both Honda and Toyota regularly come out top in "Which?" a UK
based consumer magazine which doesn't take adverts so it's totally
independant of manufacturers.
--
Clive
== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 4:11 pm
From: dsi1
On 2/5/2010 1:10 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> There WAS a cultural thing - no "whitey"- particularly a simple
> mechanic - could ever tell a Jap - particularly an engineer - how to
> fix something.
> I made a lot of suggestions - and showed how I had fixed certain
> problems - and eventually a little Jap engineer would come up with a
> fix for the problem - which very often was the fix I had come up with
> - but now it was the Jap Engineer's fix.
What's yer point? Are you suggesting that "whitey" engineers treat
grease monkeys any differently? That's great! Don't forget that all old
Toyotas will rust away too.
== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 4:23 pm
From: dbu''
In article <yN03EnXB3KbLFwJ5@yewbank.demon.co.uk>,
Clive <Clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <gmmjm5dvq4h0uv026p7dp49eofj85fb17m@4ax.com>,
> clare@snyder.on.ca writes
> >My experience too. But you can add Mitsubishi in with Nissan and GM.
> >Mazda is closer to Ford the last few years, pulling ahead of Nissan
> >and GM. Honda is somewhere in around Chrysler/Toyota
> Mitsubishi for years sold cars with defective brakes, even the board of
> directors knew about it, eventually they all were put on trial. Nissan
> is owned/shared with Renault a company that regularly under-performs in
> the reliability stakes, luckily my Nissan predates the tie up. Mazda
> is a ford and if you look hard enough you'll see all the Ford parts but
> Mazda names. Chrysler is in a league of it's own in unreliability,
> whilst both Honda and Toyota regularly come out top in "Which?" a UK
> based consumer magazine which doesn't take adverts so it's totally
> independant of manufacturers.
Soon, maybe, car companies will either refuse to sell or will require
large insurance to cover such incidences, premiums passed down to
consumers, of course. OR, a waver signed by the consumer, doubtful
because these instruments do not hold up well in civil courts. Just
forget it. We'll all be paying more $$$ for just a few incidences.
Hope you like walking, taking a bus or riding the bike. Cheers.
--
== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 6:26 pm
From: clare@snyder.on.ca
On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:23:10 -0600, dbu'' <nospam@nobama.com.invalid>
wrote:
>In article <yN03EnXB3KbLFwJ5@yewbank.demon.co.uk>,
> Clive <Clive@yewbank.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <gmmjm5dvq4h0uv026p7dp49eofj85fb17m@4ax.com>,
>> clare@snyder.on.ca writes
>> >My experience too. But you can add Mitsubishi in with Nissan and GM.
>> >Mazda is closer to Ford the last few years, pulling ahead of Nissan
>> >and GM. Honda is somewhere in around Chrysler/Toyota
>> Mitsubishi for years sold cars with defective brakes, even the board of
>> directors knew about it, eventually they all were put on trial. Nissan
>> is owned/shared with Renault a company that regularly under-performs in
>> the reliability stakes, luckily my Nissan predates the tie up. Mazda
>> is a ford and if you look hard enough you'll see all the Ford parts but
>> Mazda names. Chrysler is in a league of it's own in unreliability,
>> whilst both Honda and Toyota regularly come out top in "Which?" a UK
>> based consumer magazine which doesn't take adverts so it's totally
>> independant of manufacturers.
>
>Soon, maybe, car companies will either refuse to sell or will require
>large insurance to cover such incidences, premiums passed down to
>consumers, of course. OR, a waver signed by the consumer, doubtful
>because these instruments do not hold up well in civil courts. Just
>forget it. We'll all be paying more $$$ for just a few incidences.
>
>Hope you like walking, taking a bus or riding the bike. Cheers.
Try buying a Cessna lately????
==============================================================================
TOPIC: BASE GTR vs ZR1 at the top gear track
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/7ae7632784e433a7?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 5 2010 9:07 am
From: me
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:50:09 -0500, "CardsFan" <me@here.com> wrote:
>Styling is a subjective thing, but I'll bet 9 out of 10 would say the 'Vette
>is the more attractive.
9 out of 10 Corvette owners anyway.
That said, Sal, nobody give a shit about the GTR. Not Nissan owners,
not Corvette owners. You want one, you buy one and go drive around
town racing 'vettes.
Nissan would make owners would be happier if they just owned up to the
issues in their cars and built better vehicles for the average owner.
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