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Today's topics:
* The 'Teg might finally be pooched... - 8 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/67f0de9b402330a3?hl=en
* And yet even more on the legendary Honda failing transmissions--Honda won't
let you buy a new one on your own - 9 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/0831d9166f228150?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: The 'Teg might finally be pooched...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/67f0de9b402330a3?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Aug 18 2010 9:53 pm
From: Mat
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:19:12 +0000, Tegger wrote:
> Mat <mxxx@nowherexcv.net> wrote in
> news:pan.2010.08.19.00.58.00.257000@nowherexcv.net:
>
>
>>
>> Any piston slap issues with that Teg?
>
>
>
> Since about 90K miles. It's been essentially unchanged for 259K miles.
>
>
>
>> I have had them since 120k, now
>> at 240k (kms) Just a little knocking for the 1st min on cold mornings
>> otherwise no problems.
>>
>
>
> My mechanic tells me piston-slap has no bearing on engine life; the engine
> will die "with" it, not "of" it.
>
> My problem with this car is simply piston-travel distance. The jalopy
> spends much of its time on the highway at about 4,000 rpm, this due to a
> very low-geared 5th. Pistons can only go up-and-down for so long before the
> rings eventually wear out.
>
> I have fervently wished, over the years, that I had a taller 5th...
hmmm, iirc mine is at <3000 at 60mph 5th gear (90 Teg)
== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 8:21 am
From: jim beam
On 08/18/2010 09:53 PM, Mat wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:19:12 +0000, Tegger wrote:
>
>> Mat<mxxx@nowherexcv.net> wrote in
>> news:pan.2010.08.19.00.58.00.257000@nowherexcv.net:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Any piston slap issues with that Teg?
>>
>>
>>
>> Since about 90K miles. It's been essentially unchanged for 259K miles.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have had them since 120k, now
>>> at 240k (kms) Just a little knocking for the 1st min on cold mornings
>>> otherwise no problems.
>>>
>>
>>
>> My mechanic tells me piston-slap has no bearing on engine life; the engine
>> will die "with" it, not "of" it.
>>
>> My problem with this car is simply piston-travel distance. The jalopy
>> spends much of its time on the highway at about 4,000 rpm, this due to a
>> very low-geared 5th. Pistons can only go up-and-down for so long before the
>> rings eventually wear out.
>>
>> I have fervently wished, over the years, that I had a taller 5th...
>
> hmmm, iirc mine is at<3000 at 60mph 5th gear (90 Teg)
>
you have the ls? tegger has the rs. different 5th ratio. if you're
doing the work yourself, it's not prohibitively expensive to swap the
gears out.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 8:25 am
From: jim beam
On 08/15/2010 06:27 PM, Tegger wrote:
> Oil consumption in the old '91 Integra seems to be increasing very rapidly.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/oil-graph.pdf
>
> Throttle-body annual inspection& clean Aug14/10:
> - oil is now VERY evident -- carbon is now wet, and throttle plate sticks
> slightly before cleaning is performed;
> - intake plenum obviously coated with oil inside;
> - exhaust emits brief puff of smoke when transmission is shifted at very
> high revs (not visible to driver, but is visible to following car).
>
> Funny though, the car just passed smog with wonderul numbers back in the
> spring, and it starts and runs as well as ever. But gas mileage has dropped
> by about 1 mpg in the past year:
> 2008: 29.79 mpg
> 2009: 29.91 mpg
> 2010: 28.75 mpg
> (June-to-Aug, each measured interval roughly 3,000 miles)
>
> Not good.
>
>
i think you still have a way to go.
http://automobiles.honda.com/mile-makers/story.aspx?Story=783
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 11:24 am
From: Grumpy AuContraire
Tegger wrote:
> Mat <mxxx@nowherexcv.net> wrote in
> news:pan.2010.08.19.00.58.00.257000@nowherexcv.net:
>
>
>> Any piston slap issues with that Teg?
>
>
>
> Since about 90K miles. It's been essentially unchanged for 259K miles.
>
>
>
>> I have had them since 120k, now
>> at 240k (kms) Just a little knocking for the 1st min on cold mornings
>> otherwise no problems.
>>
>
>
> My mechanic tells me piston-slap has no bearing on engine life; the engine
> will die "with" it, not "of" it.
>
> My problem with this car is simply piston-travel distance. The jalopy
> spends much of its time on the highway at about 4,000 rpm, this due to a
> very low-geared 5th. Pistons can only go up-and-down for so long before the
> rings eventually wear out.
>
> I have fervently wished, over the years, that I had a taller 5th...
Wow... I tend to keep the Gen II Civics below 3K (rpm)s. A lot of
things can be factored in over time including metal fatigue, ka pow!
When you finally retire it, do so with ceremony...
JT
== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 11:36 am
From: jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt.net>
Tegger wrote:
>
>
> Because with the level dropping as far as it does, as fast as it does, I
> now need to top-up more frequently than before. And if I top-up, I might as
> well record what I find as I go.
What has that got to do with the question I asked. You said compute mileage
over a 3000 mile interval. Are you saying you "top-up" your gas tank once every
3000 miles?
For some reason you seem to comprehend that measuring gas mileage over small
disjointed intervals would produce inaccurate results. For some reason you
can't comprehend that measuring over small disjointed intervals is even more
inaccurate for determining oil usage.
>
>
> >
> >
> > I notice you went from 344,700 349,00 without an oil change. Thought
> > you claimed to change oil every 3000 miles.
> >
>
> That particular interval was due to my 83-year-old mother having some
> serious health problems, ending up in the hospital for a couple of weeks; I
> had no time to do an oil change. She lives an hour away from me one-way, so
> I did a lot of driving over those two weeks.
Do you think I was suggesting your car behaves differently because it knows
your mother is sick?
What your engine did seem to notice was how long you left the oil in this
summer. In case you didn't know there is a very definite relationship between
how much oil an engine uses and how long the oil has been in the crankcase.
This relationship is usually very evident in an engine with more than 300k
miles that is starting to use some oil. That relationship is the exact opposite
of what most your data shows (up until this summer) , which is why I know your
data (up until this summer) is bogus.
-jim
>
>
> --
> Tegger
== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 11:48 am
From: Tegger
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Yc6dnfyus9N_1vDRnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>>
>
> you have the ls? tegger has the rs. different 5th ratio.
Actually, the transmission gear ratios are the same through all models of
the Integra for '90 and for '91. They are different from automatic to
manual, though.
--
Tegger
== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 2:48 pm
From: jim beam
On 08/19/2010 11:48 AM, Tegger wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Yc6dnfyus9N_1vDRnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> you have the ls? tegger has the rs. different 5th ratio.
>
>
>
> Actually, the transmission gear ratios are the same through all models of
> the Integra for '90 and for '91.
but different ratios are apparently available:
http://hondaswap.com/reference-materials/honda-transmission-specs-29132/
> They are different from automatic to
> manual, though.
>
>
>
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 4:26 pm
From: Tegger
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:D5qdnY0eI-UlO_DRnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
> On 08/19/2010 11:48 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
>> news:Yc6dnfyus9N_1vDRnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> you have the ls? tegger has the rs. different 5th ratio.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, the transmission gear ratios are the same through all
>> models of the Integra for '90 and for '91.
>
> but different ratios are apparently available:
> http://hondaswap.com/reference-materials/honda-transmission-specs-29132
> /
Apparently so, but they all shipped from Suzuka equipped the same way.
Wish I'd thought of asking years ago if there were a taller 5th available.
I see the site you reference shows the B18B as having shipped with taller
5th and diff ratios. What's that, about 7% taller overall than the ratios
listed for the USDM B18A? Not a lot of difference. I'd get 3,880 rpm
instead of 4,000.
Then there's the question of whether the listed gearsets are even
compatible between trannies.
I'd guess the aftermarket also makes gearsets with custom ratios.
--
Tegger
==============================================================================
TOPIC: And yet even more on the legendary Honda failing transmissions--Honda
won't let you buy a new one on your own
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/0831d9166f228150?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 7:14 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
the cost of replacing it.
And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
Please allow me to repeat this: American Honda will not sell you a
working transmission to replace the self-destructing one they sold you 8
or 9 years ago when you bought the car new.
The ONLY way to get an American Honda transmission, he said, is if you
are under some sort of warranty or goodwill accommodation with American
Honda.
????
So the natural question is, how do you handle customers who for whatever
reason are not under such an arrangement?
This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
sleazy.
Interesting side note: The transmission I'm getting as part of my
goodwill arrangement is sufficiently different from the grenaded factory
unit that it needs a different control program. Since my control module
can't be flashed, Honda requires that I get a new computer with this new
transmission--hence the high cost of the overall job. Honda's TSBs
flesh this out; this is so important to Honda that years ago, after they
had already replaced a bunch of transmissions and later discovered the
need for the new control program, they went back and GAVE the
already-repaired customers brand new computers for free.
Of course, now I have to PAY for the computer...
Anyway, this puts the idea of taking it to AAMCO into a whole new light.
I don't know the TRUE importance of the new control program; would a
third-party-rebuilt unit similarly self-destruct a few years down the
road because neither the inherent design nor the control computer was
taken care of?
Inquiring minds and all that.
For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
$2218 plus tax.
In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
$2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 7:46 am
From: Dddudley
On 8/19/2010 9:14 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
> transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
> the cost of replacing it.
>
> And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
>
> Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
> writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
> replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
> ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
> replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
[snip]
> This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
> units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
> know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
> no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
>
> I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
> service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
> sleazy.
If true, it's more than "sounds sleazy" it is beneath sleazy. In fact
you'd have to dig a hole in order to stand on top of that policy.
Let us know what comes from your "chat" (oh, to be a fly on THAT wall)
with the service manager.
FWIW, I gotta think that there is some federal trade regulation that
requires the automakers to produce and maintain a supply of component
parts for their vehicles and that the time frame for that would be more
than 7 - 8 years. I thought about Magnuson Moss Act but didn't see
anything relevant to it there.
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 8:09 am
From: jim beam
On 08/19/2010 07:14 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
> transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
> the cost of replacing it.
>
> And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
>
> Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
> writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
> replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
> ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
> replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
>
> Please allow me to repeat this: American Honda will not sell you a
> working transmission to replace the self-destructing one they sold you 8
> or 9 years ago when you bought the car new.
>
> The ONLY way to get an American Honda transmission, he said, is if you
> are under some sort of warranty or goodwill accommodation with American
> Honda.
>
> ????
>
> So the natural question is, how do you handle customers who for whatever
> reason are not under such an arrangement?
>
> This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
> units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
> know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
> no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
>
> I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
> service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
> sleazy.
>
> Interesting side note: The transmission I'm getting as part of my
> goodwill arrangement is sufficiently different from the grenaded factory
> unit that it needs a different control program. Since my control module
> can't be flashed, Honda requires that I get a new computer with this new
> transmission--hence the high cost of the overall job. Honda's TSBs
> flesh this out; this is so important to Honda that years ago, after they
> had already replaced a bunch of transmissions and later discovered the
> need for the new control program, they went back and GAVE the
> already-repaired customers brand new computers for free.
>
> Of course, now I have to PAY for the computer...
>
> Anyway, this puts the idea of taking it to AAMCO into a whole new light.
> I don't know the TRUE importance of the new control program; would a
> third-party-rebuilt unit similarly self-destruct a few years down the
> road because neither the inherent design nor the control computer was
> taken care of?
>
> Inquiring minds and all that.
>
> For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
> $2218 plus tax.
>
> In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
> $2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
> car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
at this stage elmo, this might be a local decision rather than
corporate. i know i will dump problem customers once they reach a
certain "pita" point. and you're almost certainly pressing their
buttons big time.
moving forward, i think your best bet is corporate - have you called
honda usa's customer care?
on the subject of dumped pita customers, one of my exes bullied lexus
corporate so hard and so long, they gave him a full refund on a vehicle
he'd had "problems" with [basically, he just decided he didn't like it].
that was three years of free driving for the price of a bunch of
emails and hollow threats he couldn't possibly execute.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 9:01 am
From: "C. E. White"
"Dddudley" <puzzled2@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:4c6d45d1$0$14557$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com...
> FWIW, I gotta think that there is some federal trade regulation that
> requires the automakers to produce and maintain a supply of component
> parts for their vehicles and that the time frame for that would be more
> than 7 - 8 years. I thought about Magnuson Moss Act but didn't see
> anything relevant to it there.
I cannot find anything that suggest there is a US Federal law that requires
manufacturers to provide spare parts for a specified period. I would love to
hear of one. Where I work we try to maintian spares for the marketing life
of a new product plus 7 years, but in many cases this is impossible because
we depend on componets from other suppliers that are discontinued.
Ed
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 11:37 am
From: Grumpy AuContraire
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
> transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
> the cost of replacing it.
>
> And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
>
> Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
> writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
> replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
> ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
> replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
>
> Please allow me to repeat this: American Honda will not sell you a
> working transmission to replace the self-destructing one they sold you 8
> or 9 years ago when you bought the car new.
>
> The ONLY way to get an American Honda transmission, he said, is if you
> are under some sort of warranty or goodwill accommodation with American
> Honda.
>
> ????
>
> So the natural question is, how do you handle customers who for whatever
> reason are not under such an arrangement?
>
> This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
> units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
> know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
> no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
>
> I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
> service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
> sleazy.
>
> Interesting side note: The transmission I'm getting as part of my
> goodwill arrangement is sufficiently different from the grenaded factory
> unit that it needs a different control program. Since my control module
> can't be flashed, Honda requires that I get a new computer with this new
> transmission--hence the high cost of the overall job. Honda's TSBs
> flesh this out; this is so important to Honda that years ago, after they
> had already replaced a bunch of transmissions and later discovered the
> need for the new control program, they went back and GAVE the
> already-repaired customers brand new computers for free.
>
> Of course, now I have to PAY for the computer...
>
> Anyway, this puts the idea of taking it to AAMCO into a whole new light.
> I don't know the TRUE importance of the new control program; would a
> third-party-rebuilt unit similarly self-destruct a few years down the
> road because neither the inherent design nor the control computer was
> taken care of?
>
> Inquiring minds and all that.
>
> For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
> $2218 plus tax.
>
> In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
> $2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
> car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
Maybe you should search the junkyards for a unit. I'll betcha you could
get a warranted used unit installed for less than $1K.
It's gotta be a bitch to be in this situation. Have you thought about
complaining to the media?
JT
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 11:43 am
From: Grumpy AuContraire
jim beam wrote:
> On 08/19/2010 07:14 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
>> transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
>> the cost of replacing it.
>>
>> And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
>>
>> Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
>> writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
>> replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
>> ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
>> replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
>>
>> Please allow me to repeat this: American Honda will not sell you a
>> working transmission to replace the self-destructing one they sold you 8
>> or 9 years ago when you bought the car new.
>>
>> The ONLY way to get an American Honda transmission, he said, is if you
>> are under some sort of warranty or goodwill accommodation with American
>> Honda.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> So the natural question is, how do you handle customers who for whatever
>> reason are not under such an arrangement?
>>
>> This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
>> units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
>> know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
>> no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
>>
>> I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
>> service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
>> sleazy.
>>
>> Interesting side note: The transmission I'm getting as part of my
>> goodwill arrangement is sufficiently different from the grenaded factory
>> unit that it needs a different control program. Since my control module
>> can't be flashed, Honda requires that I get a new computer with this new
>> transmission--hence the high cost of the overall job. Honda's TSBs
>> flesh this out; this is so important to Honda that years ago, after they
>> had already replaced a bunch of transmissions and later discovered the
>> need for the new control program, they went back and GAVE the
>> already-repaired customers brand new computers for free.
>>
>> Of course, now I have to PAY for the computer...
>>
>> Anyway, this puts the idea of taking it to AAMCO into a whole new light.
>> I don't know the TRUE importance of the new control program; would a
>> third-party-rebuilt unit similarly self-destruct a few years down the
>> road because neither the inherent design nor the control computer was
>> taken care of?
>>
>> Inquiring minds and all that.
>>
>> For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
>> $2218 plus tax.
>>
>> In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
>> $2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
>> car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
>
> at this stage elmo, this might be a local decision rather than
> corporate. i know i will dump problem customers once they reach a
> certain "pita" point. and you're almost certainly pressing their
> buttons big time.
>
> moving forward, i think your best bet is corporate - have you called
> honda usa's customer care?
>
> on the subject of dumped pita customers, one of my exes bullied lexus
> corporate so hard and so long, they gave him a full refund on a vehicle
> he'd had "problems" with [basically, he just decided he didn't like it].
> that was three years of free driving for the price of a bunch of emails
> and hollow threats he couldn't possibly execute.
>
The old saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease," sure rings true.
In EVERY circumstance where I had a beef and could not get a
satisfactory resolution, I did not hesitate to escalate.
One thing for sure, Elmo's situation is another nail in the coffin of me
ever upgrading to more modern transportation...
JT
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Thurs, Aug 19 2010 3:45 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <ONWdnWC-fNNn9vDRnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Grumpy AuContraire <GrumpyOne@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote:
> > For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
> > $2218 plus tax.
> >
> > In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
> > $2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
> > car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough
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