http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda?hl=en
rec.autos.makers.honda@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* And yet even more on the legendary Honda failing transmissions--Honda won't
let you buy a new one on your own - 9 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/0831d9166f228150?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: And yet even more on the legendary Honda failing transmissions--Honda
won't let you buy a new one on your own
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/0831d9166f228150?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Aug 20 2010 7:27 pm
From: Tegger
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
news:elmop-ACDBAD.21081420082010@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.e
xample.com:
>
> ServiceNews, Feb 2006, p. 4.
>
> Looks like Honda lied, then chose to make the customer pay for it.
I'm not sure how this is a lie. That's the no-flush mention. It does NOT
prohibit drain-and-fill, which all any AT needs.
>
> Will I ever own a Honda anymore? Who knows. But American Honda Motor
> Manufacturing did a superb job of taking my automatic response to
> spending $30K--"shoot, that's a LOT of money, better buy a Honda"--and
> turning it into, "shoot, that's a LOT of money, why risk it on a
> Honda?".
>
You won't have a lot better luck with any other make, frankly. Federal
government regulations now impose such horrendous costs on automakers that
they're all dumbing-down their cars and their after-sales service. Honda
remains one of the better ones.
--
Tegger
== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 5:16 am
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <Xns9DDAE46B095A4tegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@example.com> wrote:
> > Looks like Honda lied, then chose to make the customer pay for it.
>
>
>
>
> I'm not sure how this is a lie. That's the no-flush mention. It does NOT
> prohibit drain-and-fill, which all any AT needs.
Read it again: "designed to give thousands of miles of trouble-free
service if you follow the maintenance schedule to the letter."
I did. And what I got was 73K miles. Maybe that's what Honda considers
"thousands of miles of trouble-free service".
My tech scolded me for not changing the fluid more often--he does it
every 15K for his own vehicle. Really? That's not what Honda
documented for the maintenance schedule. Well, had Honda sent me a
letter telling me to ignore my owner's manual and do it a different way,
I would have.
> > Will I ever own a Honda anymore? Who knows. But American Honda Motor
> > Manufacturing did a superb job of taking my automatic response to
> > spending $30K--"shoot, that's a LOT of money, better buy a Honda"--and
> > turning it into, "shoot, that's a LOT of money, why risk it on a
> > Honda?".
> >
>
>
> You won't have a lot better luck with any other make, frankly.
You know, I've been thinking about that. I think you're right. That
means that Honda has completely upended my thinking on how to spend my
transportation dollar. Buying a Honda new and running it into the
ground is now an obviously expensive task, possibly just as expensive as
just leasing new every three years. If that's the answer, then it won't
be Honda--it'll be something else. I say that simply because Honda is
always, always, always behind the times in feature sets. If I'm going
to lease something, I'll get the one with the fancier gadgets--things
that Honda won't have for five more years.
Either that, or I'll just start buying Bluesmobiles for my wife to drive
the kids around town in. Easy to fix, and who cars if she bumps into
something. When we want to go on a trip, we'll rent a van.
== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 10:49 am
From: "PE"
Is this "legendary transmission problem" something that I should start
watching for in a few years when the mileage on my 09 Civic EX (4cyl/4-door
sedan/5-speed auto trans) gets into the high five figures?
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-6ADC06.10140619082010@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
> Some of you know about my 2002 Odyssey with 73K miles and its failed
> transmission, and American Honda's "generous" offer to pay 50% toward
> the cost of replacing it.
>
> And, of course, you know my feelings on the subject.
>
> Anyway, I dropped the van off yesterday. In talking with the service
> writer, he indicated that as of about six months ago, if you need to
> replace the transmission in your 02 or 03 V6 Honda, and you come in to
> ask that the dealership do this, American Honda will not sell you a
> replacement unit of any kind under any circumstances.
>
> Please allow me to repeat this: American Honda will not sell you a
> working transmission to replace the self-destructing one they sold you 8
> or 9 years ago when you bought the car new.
>
> The ONLY way to get an American Honda transmission, he said, is if you
> are under some sort of warranty or goodwill accommodation with American
> Honda.
>
> ????
>
> So the natural question is, how do you handle customers who for whatever
> reason are not under such an arrangement?
>
> This particular dealership has an arrangement with a junkyard to get
> units from them. The junkyard "warrants" them for life (or, as we all
> know, just keeps throwing units at the customer as the old ones die--but
> no doubt the customer ends up paying labor, right?).
>
> I didn't pursue this with the service writer. I'll talk with the
> service manager this week to clarify. I mean, this sounds low rent
> sleazy.
>
> Interesting side note: The transmission I'm getting as part of my
> goodwill arrangement is sufficiently different from the grenaded factory
> unit that it needs a different control program. Since my control module
> can't be flashed, Honda requires that I get a new computer with this new
> transmission--hence the high cost of the overall job. Honda's TSBs
> flesh this out; this is so important to Honda that years ago, after they
> had already replaced a bunch of transmissions and later discovered the
> need for the new control program, they went back and GAVE the
> already-repaired customers brand new computers for free.
>
> Of course, now I have to PAY for the computer...
>
> Anyway, this puts the idea of taking it to AAMCO into a whole new light.
> I don't know the TRUE importance of the new control program; would a
> third-party-rebuilt unit similarly self-destruct a few years down the
> road because neither the inherent design nor the control computer was
> taken care of?
>
> Inquiring minds and all that.
>
> For reference, Honda's 50% accommodation leaves me holding the bag for
> $2218 plus tax.
>
> In my mind, that's just retroactively raising the price of the van
> $2218. And to think that when I bought it, it was the most expensive
> car this dealership had ever sold. Apparently, that wasn't good enough.
>
== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 11:15 am
From: jim beam
On 08/20/2010 05:50 PM, Tegger wrote:
> ACAR<dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> wrote in news:44aba925-d619-4fce-aecb-
> a6df12f4bdb5@q22g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Aug 20, 6:56�am, Tegger<inva...@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> One thing for sure, Elmo's situation is another nail in the coffin of
>>>> me ever upgrading to more modern transportation...
>>>
>>> Here's another one:
>>>
>>> snip
>>
>> How many RAV4s require the same repair as your example?
>
>
>
> Pretty much all of them past about 150K miles, give or take. That's about
> as long as any of them go now, before the dreaded P0420 DTC, Hondas
> included.
>
>
>
>>
>> I just had my '89 Legend towed away. Don't even try to tell me that
>> systems on that generation vehicle are anywhere near as reliable as
>> the current crop.
>
>
>
> Oh, they were. Given proper maintenance, they were just about bullet-proof.
honda's of that generation are great - later 80's/early 90's was their
finest hour. great mechanicals, great ergonomics, they really were at
the top of their game.
> The problem was, many were not given proper maintenance. That's why the
> feds eventually imposed OBD-II.
>
> Imagine how simple and reliable the 1991 system could be now, if automakers
> had had 19 years to perfect it,
in terms of achieving goals, the technical challenge since the period
above is that of life limitation, not getting it to work well or
"improvement". with bean counters setting the engineering agendas, it's
all about getting stuff to last for a design period, but then having it
fail. light bulb manufacturers figured this out decades ago - that's
why things like domestic tungsten filament bulbs only last 800 or 1000
hours - it's what they're designed for. apply the same principles to
cars, and you have a more predictable revenue stream. or so they think.
truth is though, designing in failure costs a lot more and takes a
heck of a lot more in r&d and lead time for testing than just making it
to work reliably. when the bean counters do their math, they'll model
increased sales decreased lifespans create, but it seems they don't
factor in reputation damage or losing customer loyalty.
> and if EPA engineers weren't so hell-bent
> on giving reasons why they should continue to suck from that juicy federal
> teat.
>
>
>
>> You need to go back to 1960s cars for mechanically
>> simple.
>
>
> But quite a lot less durable and reliable. By 1991, they'd hit the
> motherlode for reliability, durability, and low emissions. But the federal
> meddlers couldn't leave well-enough alone.
mechanically, that's pretty much correct, some engine improvements
aside. but i'm not sure that emissions regs are as you say. fact is,
manufacturers like honda have always been way ahead of any regs on
economy and emissions, and will probably continue to be so.
fromt he political perspective though, when we have regulators who
mandate emissions and economy targets for manufacturers, but then waive
those requirements if a honking great gas guzzler has a few different
o-rings in it so that it qualifies as "flex fuel" and is thus exempt
from c.a.f.e., you /know/ that the regs are a secondary concern.
>
>
>
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 12:43 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <TsCdnZnn0MlMjO3RnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"PE" <ple@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Is this "legendary transmission problem" something that I should start
> watching for in a few years when the mileage on my 09 Civic EX (4cyl/4-door
> sedan/5-speed auto trans) gets into the high five figures?
Not the same one, but yes--the auto transmission in a modern car is by
far the weakest link in the whole chain.
And let's face it: Honda is just like GM now, where they plan the car
to become obsolete so that you come back and buy a new one.
From what I've seen, it's cheap insurance to change the trans fluid at
least twice as often as what Honda says. No guarantees, though. But if
you're religious about having your maintenance and repairs done at the
dealer, that kind of diligence shows Honda that you're serious--and when
the transmission fails at 75K miles (not saying it will), you have a leg
to stand on when demanding accommodation for the repair.
== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 4:11 pm
From: "PE"
So, then, if I think I'm likely to keep the Civic beyond the expiration of
the factory warranty, would the "legendary transmission problem" make it
advisable to purchase an extended warranty?
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-E552A1.15430821082010@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
> In article <TsCdnZnn0MlMjO3RnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "PE" <ple@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Is this "legendary transmission problem" something that I should start
>> watching for in a few years when the mileage on my 09 Civic EX
>> (4cyl/4-door
>> sedan/5-speed auto trans) gets into the high five figures?
>
> Not the same one, but yes--the auto transmission in a modern car is by
> far the weakest link in the whole chain.
>
> And let's face it: Honda is just like GM now, where they plan the car
> to become obsolete so that you come back and buy a new one.
>
> From what I've seen, it's cheap insurance to change the trans fluid at
> least twice as often as what Honda says. No guarantees, though. But if
> you're religious about having your maintenance and repairs done at the
> dealer, that kind of diligence shows Honda that you're serious--and when
> the transmission fails at 75K miles (not saying it will), you have a leg
> to stand on when demanding accommodation for the repair.
>
== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 8:26 pm
From: Al
On 8/19/2010 6:48 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<OoSdnZjWeuO_1PDRnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> at this stage elmo, this might be a local decision rather than
>> corporate. i know i will dump problem customers once they reach a
>> certain "pita" point. and you're almost certainly pressing their
>> buttons big time.
>
> Screw 'em. They pressed my buttons the moment the tranny started
> failing on a gently used original owner 2002 Honda that went out the
> door for $30K.
>
> If this is the best they can do...
>
> I didn't call the Honda customer service line, on advice of many people
> who should be knowledgeable who all advised that 50% was the limit.
> Plus, I just wanted to move on.
>
> I'm sure glad I didn't settle for the 25%, though. It's all about
> knowing where that line is. I *think* 50% is the line today, without a
> HUGE amount of hassle.
Dec 02 I bought a new 03 Accord EX-L V6 from dealer A.
Jul 07 I bought new 07 Accord EX-L V6, this time from dealer B.
May 08 the 03 Accord transmission went out at 85,300 miles. I brought
it to dealer B. Next day they called and said the trans was shot, did I
want them to fix it and did I want them to call Honda and see if they
could do anything for me, since I was an established Honda customer. I
said sure. Next call was that they could put in a factory rebuilt,
36,000 3 year warranty, and split the cost 50-50 (about 1550. to me). I
said go. Two days later he called and said it was done. Total out the
door cost to me was $1492.14 (less than the estimate - and they gave me
a free oil change since it was due - note dealer B had never seen or
serviced this car before)
I don't know if an 02 Odyssey is a much more expensive trans than an 03
Accord, or if the time/difficulty to change it is so much greater to
account for the difference between my 50% (1492.14 including tax) and
your 50% ($2218 plus tax)
I bought the vehicle knowing it had a 36,000 mile, 36 month warranty. I
was quite pleased with the adjustment I got, realizing I was 49,300
miles and 41 months over the warranty. (More than double both time and
miles).
In your case you are 37,000 miles and 60 months past the warranty. For
how many miles and how many months should/can any manufacturer stand
ready to do multi-thousand dollar repairs on every unit it has ever built?
== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 8:38 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <bdOdnU3nfYPWwO3RnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"PE" <ple@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> So, then, if I think I'm likely to keep the Civic beyond the expiration of
> the factory warranty, would the "legendary transmission problem" make it
> advisable to purchase an extended warranty?
In my case, it wouldn't have helped. However, I am a big proponent of
HondaCare.
That being said, I haven't seen a HondaCare contract lately, and I can't
speak to today's terms and conditions. Read it carefully to see what it
covers and doesn't cover.
== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 21 2010 9:14 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <4c7098d7$0$4997$607ed4bc@cv.net>, Al <al@spamless.net>
wrote:
> May 08 the 03 Accord transmission went out at 85,300 miles. I brought
> it to dealer B. Next day they called and said the trans was shot, did I
> want them to fix it and did I want them to call Honda and see if they
> could do anything for me, since I was an established Honda customer. I
> said sure. Next call was that they could put in a factory rebuilt,
> 36,000 3 year warranty, and split the cost 50-50 (about 1550. to me). I
> said go. Two days later he called and said it was done. Total out the
> door cost to me was $1492.14 (less than the estimate - and they gave me
> a free oil change since it was due - note dealer B had never seen or
> serviced this car before)
>
> I don't know if an 02 Odyssey is a much more expensive trans than an 03
> Accord, or if the time/difficulty to change it is so much greater to
> account for the difference between my 50% (1492.14 including tax) and
> your 50% ($2218 plus tax)
No doubt there's some extra labor involved, but I think most of the
additional cost was the transmission control computer that Honda also
replaces as part of these particular repairs.
I have to say, overall my total bill (including a couple other things I
had them do while it was in) came in a bit under what I expected.
> For
> how many miles and how many months should/can any manufacturer stand
> ready to do multi-thousand dollar repairs on every unit it has ever built?
That's not the point. This isn't just "one of those things;" this
transmission was known by Honda to be pure junk from the get-go. They
let the accountants design this, cutting costs so far as to guarantee
that every unit will self-destruct at around 80K miles or so.
When Honda discovered this, it was on the heels of the pure junk 4 speed
automatic they hooked to their V6 engines, the unit they put onto
Accords from 98 through 02 and on Odysseys from 99 through 01 (and
various Acuras, naturally). That unit was the center of the largest
recall and service campaign Honda had ever been pushed into. When they
discovered that its replacement, my 5 speed auto that they introduced
with the 02 Odyssey, was also junk, they were quite sensitive to the
cost situation. They quickly fixed the design of the 5 speed auto, such
that mid-04 and up models got good units. But instead of taking care of
the customers that got the initial design of that unit, they stuck their
heads in the sand.
Keep in mind, this transmission was in a family van, which is
traditionally filled with children and mothers. And when the
transmission goes out, the car just STOPS accelerating forward. This is
NOT good when driving in the city, going through intersections and
trying to squeeze into various traffic.
I would go so far as to consider this dangerous to drive from the first
moment it starts failing.
Now, allow me to frame the above with a bit of context. In 1984 or so,
I bought a 79 Civic. Loved it. But at one point the front end started
swaying around. I took it to my dealer--this very dealer that I've
dealt with ever since, and which handled my Odyssey this go round.
The dealer called me to say they wouldn't be giving my car back that
day. Why? Because the FRONT BEAM was rusted out, and the car was--get
this--dangerous to drive. The good news, though, was that Honda was
picking up the repair COMPLETELY and I'd have the car back the next day,
after they got a new front beam installed. It was a safety issue, they
said, and Honda was simply taking care of it to the point of shipping a
new front beam across country for next day installation.
Great. (Just like they should have with my transmission--read on.)
Fast forward a few months, and my gas tank is leaking. ????? Back to
this dealer. Hey, guess what? Honda admitted to a bad design with the
gas tank straps trapping moisture and causing the tank to rust. They'll
buy me a new tank if I'll pay the labor to install it ($50 at the time).
Absolutely!!
I didn't even have to ASK for any of these things to be taken care of.
Honda and this dealer did this for me AUTOMATICALLY. No stonewalling,
no "we've never heard of anything like this, don't know what to tell
you," nothing like that at all.
Man, I am loving this Honda thing. They really know how to engender
loyalty. This is the mid-80s, and THEY ADMIT TO THEIR MISTAKES. Not
only that, THEY CORRECT THEIR MISTAKES and they don't force their
customers to pay for their mistakes. Wow.
Late 86 or early 87, my girlfriend (now wife) needs a car. I love my
shitbox Civic (we're college students), and that's all she really needs,
so we find one. A 79, copper, 1200 4 speed, just what the doctor
ordered. Fast forward a few months, and guess what? The gas tank is
leaking.
Oh HO, say I. No problem; take it to the dealer, and explain how
there's a campaign on that, and that Honda will buy the part. She's
much closer to a different dealer, but I don't care. She takes it in on
a Thursday. Friday they call, the car is ready--but they want full
price for the repair. She asks them: didn't you check with Honda like
I said about this being covered by a service campaign? Well, no, they
didn't. If she wants the car now, she'll have to pay full ticket and
they'll check with Honda later (fat chance). Otherwise, she'd have to
leave the car there while they check with Honda on Monday.
She calls me, upset. She doesn't have the cash, and she needs the car
that weekend.
Hmmmm. It's 4:15 on a Friday afternoon. Hmmmm. I dig up the number
for the Honda zone office in my area, and I call them. I briefly
explain what's going on, and my history with this same situation. The
guy listens politely, I finish my piece, he says "that's crap, hang on"
and puts me on hold. A few minutes later he comes back and says, "It's
all taken care of, all you pay is labor. Go get your car."
WHEEEE! Sure enough, we roll into this other dealership right before
5pm on Friday. The service manager is there at the service desk, hears
my wife give her name to pick up her car, and addresses us with, "So,
you went over our heads, eh?" Sure as hell did, lady. Thanks for
nothing. Have a good life, we're out of here.
That was 1987 or so. That series of events nailed it shut. When I went
to spend my money on a car, it was "of course I'm buying a Honda. This
is a huge expense; why would I risk it with anything else?" This led to
my family buying Hondas, and finally to me buying the most expensive car
that dealership had sold to date--on Sept. 12, 2001, when I rolled out
of there in a $30,500 van (and then last year, when my brothers and I
went to buy our father a luxury SUV and ended up with a $50K Acura MDX
on the very same basis--"it's a Honda, why are we even looking at Volvo
or Lexus?").
Fast forward to this situation. Honda has radically changed, and really
doesn't give a rat's ass about their customers anymore. Honda is just
GM of the 70s and 80s--seeking the almighty immediate profit at the
expense of long term business and profits.
In one fell swoop, Honda has changed my tune into, "I'm spending a huge
amount of money to acquire a car; why would I risk that by buying a
Honda?"
That's a full 180, Honda. A full 180. Now you're no better than any
other crappy manufacturer out there, and in addition I have incentive
NOT to reward you for your recent behavior toward me.
How many others have you done this to, Honda?
I just read an editorial where someone has studied and claims that true
profit, long term profit, cannot be sustained when you're focusing so
hard on the short term. Honda *used* to understand that, but they no
longer do.
I will still tell the original stories, partly because they're true but
mostly because they put a good framework to the final story showing just
how far Honda has fallen and what a sucker bet it is to buy that 06 90K
mile Odyssey for anywhere near the $20K asking price (just as an
example). I *want* the Honda legend to die, because it deserves to. I
*want* people to stop thinking that a used Honda is worth insane amounts
of money simply because it's a Honda.
==============================================================================
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rec.autos.makers.honda"
group.
To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda?hl=en
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rec.autos.makers.honda+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/subscribe?hl=en
To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com
==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en
No comments:
Post a Comment