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* The Most Powerful Natural Penis Enlargement Technique - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/66fac8e999e67fe9?hl=en
* What percentage of 20 year old cars are on the road? - 25 messages, 12
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/7483cc33ad80a6fb?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Most Powerful Natural Penis Enlargement Technique
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/66fac8e999e67fe9?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Oct 27 2009 11:34 pm
From: Jennifer
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TOPIC: What percentage of 20 year old cars are on the road?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.nissan/t/7483cc33ad80a6fb?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 4:09 am
From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
>>
>> This morning I parked my '74 next to a Desoto and a '54 MG at work.
>> And I work for an outfit that's supposed to be doing state of the art
>> technology, too.
>>
>> The guy with the Model A wasn't there, though. He took the Maverick
>> in.
>
>You work in a very unusual place, I must say. Does your company hire only
>one-upmans?
No, mostly geeks. Believe me, the car dealers and hardware stores near
the base have some stories...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
== 2 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 4:43 am
From: "C. E. White"
"JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:7MEFm.33364$eJ4.30955@newsfe07.iad...
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:4ae71565$1@kcnews01...
>
>>
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" <newstrash@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>> news:08EFm.33212$eJ4.26377@newsfe07.iad...
>>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4ae70c7c$1@kcnews01...
>>>>A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of
>>>>all
>>>>Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This
>>>>seemed to be a
>>>>very low number to me. What do other think?
>>>>
>>>> I would have thought given Toyota's increase in sales over the
>>>> last twenty
>>>> years they would have had more like 90% of the cars sold in the
>>>> last 20
>>>> years still on the road. Toyota sales have been increasing over
>>>> the last
>>>> twenty years, so a higher percentage of Toyotas will be newer
>>>> models.
>>>> Since a high percentage of Toyotas are newer vehicles that are
>>>> more likely
>>>> to still be on the road, the overall percentage of Toyotas sold
>>>> in the
>>>> last 20 years will be higher (becasue of the newer car bias). For
>>>> GM, the
>>>> math works the other way. GM sales have been stagnent or actually
>>>> declining over the last 20 years, so a higher percentage of their
>>>> cars
>>>> will be older and therefore less likely to still be on the road.
>>>> I am sure
>>>> the 80% number is based on registrations, so it might be that it
>>>> over
>>>> estimates the number actually in daily use - or under estimates
>>>> it in
>>>> cases where cars are used off road (or illeagally) and not
>>>> registered.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any actual numbers?
>>>
>>>
>>> State motor vehicle deparments probably have the data, although it
>>> might
>>> need to be massaged in order to make sense of it. If magazines &
>>> newspapers
>>> can get the information, you probably can too. That's a big "if",
>>> though. It
>>> might cost money.
>>
>> I should have been a little clearer. I am sure RL Polk & Co. has
>> amassed the registration data for all the US into a huge database.
>> RL Polk is in the buisness of selling this information. Ads
>> claiming longevity often reference RL Poolk data as the source of
>> the claim, but I can't access the raw data without paying for it. I
>> was hoping there was an open source (i.e. free), possibly a
>> simplified version, available to the public. Without being to
>> actually see the data, it is hard to know how to treat the claims
>> based on the data. I once wrote Chevy and asked about their claim
>> that Chevy makes the longest lasting most reliable trucks. All they
>> said was that it was based on RL Polk registration data for a
>> particualr period. Of course without actually ahving access to the
>> data, I can't see how the claim means anything. Even worse, even if
>> I had the raw registration data, I doubt it is meaningful unless
>> you also know how the trucks were actully used. I always assumed
>> that a higher percentage of Chevy trucks were purchased by suburban
>> users than was the case for Ford (i.e., more Fords were in
>> commercial use / farm use / fleet use), and therefore the Chevy
>> trucks were more liekly to be gently used, better cared for, and
>> used less, so therefore registration data byear alone would tend to
>> suggest they lasted longer... which might not really be true for
>> vehicles used in the same manner by similar populations of users.
>>
>> I guess the old statement that "Figures don't lie, but liars
>> figure" sums up the problem with claims made based on RL Polk
>> registration data. I've always assumed that manufacturers actually
>> have good data, but that they have no intention of publishing it.
>> No manufactuer builds perfect vehciles, and if they start putting
>> out the good data, sooner of later someone is going to demand to
>> see the bad data as well, and use a lawsuit to pry it out into the
>> open. Better to make unverifiable claims based on third party
>> information that can be checked but don't actually prove anything.
>>
>> I am 100% sure that Toyota is telling the truth when they say 80%
>> of the Toyotas sold in the last twenty years are still on the road.
>> I am also certain that it is virtually a meaningless statement, but
>> that it sounds like it means something important. It is the perfect
>> sort of marketing claim - true, verifiable, and easily
>> missunderstood to be more significant than it is. At least that is
>> how I see it.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
>
> Write to Polk and ask if anyone (maybe a magazine) has published
> articles which answer your questions using that data.
>
> While you're at it, see if they have any data which backs up your
> bullshit claims about what types of people buy certain brands of
> trucks for particular purposes ("work" versus "just to haul
> groceries and the dog").
I can have an opinion or make assumptions about how trucks are used. I
don't think my assumptions or opinions are the same as "data." If you
disagree with my opinions, I get that. But you need to recognize the
difference between opinions and data. Maybe I need to include "I
think," or "I beleive," or "it seems like" in front of every
statement, but wouldn't that be tiresome. And of course, you need to
do the same. When I present something as a fact, I usually try to cite
a source. Otherwise you can assume my statemens represent an opinion,
a persoanl observation, or an assumption. The statements may indeed be
wrong, or silliy, or even stupid, but they are mine.
As for how trucks are used, I can only go by what I see in my little
corner(s) of the world. Mostly, where I farm, the overwhelming choice
for pickups are Ford SuperDuties with a few F150s. Then Chevy
Silverados (mostly HD), and then Dodges (again, mostly HD). I know one
farmer with a Frontier (like I used to have), but he also has an F250.
I also know one farmer with a Tundra (the old better style). He has an
F250 also. Most of the "new" Tundras I see are parked in town. They
are new, clean, and shiny with mostly empty beds. I realize this might
be too small a sample to be meaningful beyond my area, but it is the
best I have. Maybe where you live, all the contractors love Tundras.
Where I live it seems Tundras are mostly owned by people who have day
jobs in town and plenty of time to polish the truck. It seems unlikely
to me that Contractors overwhelmingly prefer Tundras anywhere given
the relatively poor Tundra sales. Even when the new Tundra sales were
"great" they had less than 10% of the big pickup market. So unless all
the Tundra are going to contractors, it seems unlikely they can be
that common as contractor trucks anywhere. The local electric co-op
did buy one this year. It will be interesting to see if they buy more
in the future. They buy based on sealed bids, so I guess the Toyota
dealer gave them the lowest price.
Ed
== 3 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 5:26 am
From: Roger Blake
On 2009-10-27, C. E. White <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote:
> A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of all
> Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This seemed to
> be a very low number to me. What do other think?
Hard to say. I've been driving the same car for over 30 years, and
have occasiona-use vehicles that are older, but suspect I'm in the
minority as such things go. (A car can be kept going pretty much
indefinitely if one is sufficiently determined.)
--
Roger Blake
(Subtract 10s for email. "Google Groups" messages killfiled due to spam.)
"Obama dozed while people froze."
== 4 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 7:01 am
From: SMS
C. E. White wrote:
> A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of all
> Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This seemed to
> be a very low number to me. What do other think?
There was a study in Canada about this.
For vehicles 11-20 years old, a 2006 Canadian study showed the following
order for highest percentage of cars still on the road in Canada
adjusted for how many were originally sold):
1. Lexus
2. Mercedes
3. Saturn
4. Infiniti
5. Acura
6. BMW
7. Volvo
8. Cadillac
9. Jaguar
10. Lincoln
11. Toyota
12. Honda
13. Mazda
14. Saab
15. Buick
16. Volkswagen
17. Chrysler
18. Nissan
---Industry Average---
19. Oldsmobile
20. Subaru
21. Chevrolet
22. Ford
23. Pontiac
24. Audi
25. Mercury
26. Eagle
27. Dodge
28. Suzuki
29. Plymouth
30. Isuzu
31. Hyundai
32. Lada
They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
explains the anomaly of Saturn).
Bottom line is that for vehicle brands in existence for the full 11-20
year time span, Toyota had the highest percentage of vehicles still on
the road for non-luxury brands.
What's also interesting is that vehicles like Volkswagen, which
routinely ranks far below average in reliability, did relatively well.
"http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/2006/060905-1.htm"
== 5 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 7:25 am
From: dr_jeff
The numbers are misleading, however. You can have a Lexus that has
200,000 mi going strong after 20 years, and a Ford Focus that has been
worn out after 500,000 after 3 years.
SMS wrote:
> C. E. White wrote:
>> A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of all
>> Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This seemed to
>> be a very low number to me. What do other think?
>
> There was a study in Canada about this.
>
> For vehicles 11-20 years old, a 2006 Canadian study showed the following
> order for highest percentage of cars still on the road in Canada
> adjusted for how many were originally sold):
>
> 1. Lexus
> 2. Mercedes
> 3. Saturn
> 4. Infiniti
> 5. Acura
> 6. BMW
> 7. Volvo
> 8. Cadillac
> 9. Jaguar
> 10. Lincoln
> 11. Toyota
> 12. Honda
> 13. Mazda
> 14. Saab
> 15. Buick
> 16. Volkswagen
> 17. Chrysler
> 18. Nissan
> ---Industry Average---
> 19. Oldsmobile
> 20. Subaru
> 21. Chevrolet
> 22. Ford
> 23. Pontiac
> 24. Audi
> 25. Mercury
> 26. Eagle
> 27. Dodge
> 28. Suzuki
> 29. Plymouth
> 30. Isuzu
> 31. Hyundai
> 32. Lada
>
> They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
> expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
> it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
> miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
> vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
> were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
> explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
> Bottom line is that for vehicle brands in existence for the full 11-20
> year time span, Toyota had the highest percentage of vehicles still on
> the road for non-luxury brands.
>
> What's also interesting is that vehicles like Volkswagen, which
> routinely ranks far below average in reliability, did relatively well.
>
> "http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/2006/060905-1.htm"
== 6 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 7:48 am
From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> 1. Lexus
> 2. Mercedes
> 3. Saturn
> 4. Infiniti
> 5. Acura
> 6. BMW
> 7. Volvo
> 8. Cadillac
> 9. Jaguar
>10. Lincoln
>11. Toyota
>12. Honda
>13. Mazda
>14. Saab
>15. Buick
>16. Volkswagen
>17. Chrysler
>18. Nissan
>---Industry Average---
>19. Oldsmobile
>20. Subaru
>21. Chevrolet
>22. Ford
>23. Pontiac
>24. Audi
>25. Mercury
>26. Eagle
>27. Dodge
>28. Suzuki
>29. Plymouth
>30. Isuzu
>31. Hyundai
>32. Lada
>
>They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
>expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
>it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
>miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
>vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
>were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
>explains the anomaly of Saturn).
I would just like to point out that Fiat is not even ON this list, that
it is farther down in the order than Lada. There is some justice in this
world.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
== 7 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 8:21 am
From: IYM <"S U N risr"@optonline.net>
> They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
> expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
> it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
> miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
> vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
> were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
> explains the anomaly of Saturn).
Not sure I agree with that...Saturn's first year was 91 (18 years) and
the first 2-5 years were the most popular, declining from there...Lexus
first year was '90, Infinity was '89 and Acura's been around in North
America since '86... So all roughly the same start time (except acura).
The 1st generation Saturn's are go-karts, a very simple design and are
easy to maintain. The composite door panels are easy to swap out when
damaged. Parts are cheap, plentiful and the first generation cars have
a large fan base (before the Vue's, Ion's and before the company was
brought back in to the GM fold and released disasters like the Relay van
and Opel products they are now.) The original Saturns are still higher
on the theft list then you'd think for the same reason old Camreys
are...interchangeability...
So I don't doubt they are up there. That number will slip off the list
in another 5 years though.
Just MHO...
IYM
== 8 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 8:45 am
From: SMS
dr_jeff wrote:
> The numbers are misleading, however. You can have a Lexus that has
> 200,000 mi going strong after 20 years, and a Ford Focus that has been
> worn out after 500,000 after 3 years.
And the reverse could also be true. There are always outliers, but of
all the possible reasons for the results, the one you gave is probably
the least likely to affect the results.
Remove the luxury makes, the niche brands, and the makes that were not
in existence for the full 20 years, and the brands that were the most
likely to be on the road for 11-20 years are:
1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Mazda
4. Buick
5. VW
6. Buick
7. Chrysler (or is this a luxury brand?)
8. Nissan
The top two are very consistent with what you see on the road, at least
in the state I live in. Tons of older Hondas and Toyotas, VWs, and Nissans.
What the survey doesn't take into account is the demographics of the
owners. Someone that purchases a Toyota or Honda is more likely to be
more highly educated and higher income, and will maintain their vehicles
better and will be less likely to drive in a way that will total the
vehicle, than the purchaser of many of the makes that did poorly in
longevity.
== 9 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 8:47 am
From: SMS
IYM wrote:
>
>> They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of
>> older expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle
>> than junk it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack
>> up a lot of miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily
>> in miles. Some vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the
>> study so there were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15
>> years old (this explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
> Not sure I agree with that...Saturn's first year was 91 (18 years) and
> the first 2-5 years were the most popular, declining from there...Lexus
What's strange about Saturn being there is that the early Saturns were
exceptionally unreliable, with severe oil burning problems, cracked
blocks, and broken timing chains. Maybe the owners just spent a lot on
repairs.
== 10 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 8:46 am
From: "C. E. White"
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4ae84eb5$0$1639$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> C. E. White wrote:
>> A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of
>> all Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This
>> seemed to be a very low number to me. What do other think?
>
> There was a study in Canada about this.
>
> For vehicles 11-20 years old, a 2006 Canadian study showed the
> following order for highest percentage of cars still on the road in
> Canada adjusted for how many were originally sold):
>
> 1. Lexus
> 2. Mercedes
> 3. Saturn
> 4. Infiniti
> 5. Acura
> 6. BMW
> 7. Volvo
> 8. Cadillac
> 9. Jaguar
> 10. Lincoln
> 11. Toyota
> 12. Honda
> 13. Mazda
> 14. Saab
> 15. Buick
> 16. Volkswagen
> 17. Chrysler
> 18. Nissan
> ---Industry Average---
> 19. Oldsmobile
> 20. Subaru
> 21. Chevrolet
> 22. Ford
> 23. Pontiac
> 24. Audi
> 25. Mercury
> 26. Eagle
> 27. Dodge
> 28. Suzuki
> 29. Plymouth
> 30. Isuzu
> 31. Hyundai
> 32. Lada
>
> They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of
> older expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle
> than junk it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack
> up a lot of miles and have shorter life in years, but not
> necessarily in miles. Some vehicles in the list didn't exist 20
> years prior to the study so there were no vehicles 16-20 years old,
> only vehicles 11-15 years old (this explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
> Bottom line is that for vehicle brands in existence for the full
> 11-20 year time span, Toyota had the highest percentage of vehicles
> still on the road for non-luxury brands.
This seems to discount the factor I am talking about - Toyota sales
(both in the US and Canada) have greatly increased over the last
twenty years. The average age for a set that includes all Toyotas sold
for any period of more than one year in the last twenty years will be
lower than for a company like GM that has had stagnent or a declining
market share over that period. Both have been selling cars for more
than 20 years in the market, but the average age of Toyotas sold
during the twenty year period is not as old as the average age for GM
cars sold during the same period. It seems to me that this must be an
improtant factor. Unless you factor this out, then all you are doing
to confusing people...if you are Toyota, it is a good confusion, if
you are GM it is a bad thing.
> What's also interesting is that vehicles like Volkswagen, which
> routinely ranks far below average in reliability, did relatively
> well.
>
> "http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/2006/060905-1.htm"
I look at cars like applainces. When they no longer meet my needs, I
dump them and get something else. In my opionion, VW owners (at least
some VW owners, and particularly old Bug owners) look at the cars as
an end in themselves. I think they take some sort of pride in proving
that they can keep a VW running despite the odds against them. When I
was younger, I felt like that about British Cars. I am smarter now...
Ed
== 11 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 9:04 am
From: IYM <"S U N risr"@optonline.net>
SMS wrote:
> IYM wrote:
>>
>>> They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of
>>> older expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle
>>> than junk it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack
>>> up a lot of miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily
>>> in miles. Some vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to
>>> the study so there were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles
>>> 11-15 years old (this explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>>
>> Not sure I agree with that...Saturn's first year was 91 (18 years) and
>> the first 2-5 years were the most popular, declining from there...Lexus
>
> What's strange about Saturn being there is that the early Saturns were
> exceptionally unreliable, with severe oil burning problems, cracked
> blocks, and broken timing chains. Maybe the owners just spent a lot on
> repairs.
Every one of those problems you list were limited I believe to only one
engine - the single cam engines - on the S1's, and not the twin cam
S2s...Not sure about the amount of S1's vs. S2's that were sold though.
As I said, they have a big following...Maybe the whole Saturn
experience that was going on back then dulled the pain of those that did
have those problems. They had that whole Saturn homecoming weekend
where you could go to the Tennessee plant, and they used to bring the
car into the showroom while you were signing papers. When the keys were
handed to you, the whole staff (sales, service, ect.) were there around
the car clapping like a Applebee's staff when it's someones birthday as
you drove it out of the showroom lol...Dunno...Still see a ton on the
road though...
== 12 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 9:58 am
From: SMS
C. E. White wrote:
> This seems to discount the factor I am talking about - Toyota sales
> (both in the US and Canada) have greatly increased over the last
> twenty years.
These rankings are based on the number of vehicles originally sold, they
are not raw numbers. Not sure what you're trying to say here.
The problem I see is that those rankings don't list the actual
percentages. They could be closely grouped together. No one argues that
Toyotas and Hondas have greater longevity and reliability than Fords or
Chevys, the debate is over how much greater longevity and how much
greater reliability.
== 13 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:05 am
From: N8N
On Oct 28, 10:48 am, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > 1. Lexus
> > 2. Mercedes
> > 3. Saturn
> > 4. Infiniti
> > 5. Acura
> > 6. BMW
> > 7. Volvo
> > 8. Cadillac
> > 9. Jaguar
> >10. Lincoln
> >11. Toyota
> >12. Honda
> >13. Mazda
> >14. Saab
> >15. Buick
> >16. Volkswagen
> >17. Chrysler
> >18. Nissan
> >---Industry Average---
> >19. Oldsmobile
> >20. Subaru
> >21. Chevrolet
> >22. Ford
> >23. Pontiac
> >24. Audi
> >25. Mercury
> >26. Eagle
> >27. Dodge
> >28. Suzuki
> >29. Plymouth
> >30. Isuzu
> >31. Hyundai
> >32. Lada
>
> >They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
> >expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
> >it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
> >miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
> >vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
> >were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
> >explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
> I would just like to point out that Fiat is not even ON this list, that
> it is farther down in the order than Lada. There is some justice in this
> world.
> --scott
If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
here.
nate
== 14 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:08 am
From: N8N
On Oct 28, 11:46 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4ae84eb5$0$1639$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > C. E. White wrote:
> >> A Toyota commercial they are running in my area claims that 80% of
> >> all Toyota sold in the last 20 years are still on the road. This
> >> seemed to be a very low number to me. What do other think?
>
> > There was a study in Canada about this.
>
> > For vehicles 11-20 years old, a 2006 Canadian study showed the
> > following order for highest percentage of cars still on the road in
> > Canada adjusted for how many were originally sold):
>
> > 1. Lexus
> > 2. Mercedes
> > 3. Saturn
> > 4. Infiniti
> > 5. Acura
> > 6. BMW
> > 7. Volvo
> > 8. Cadillac
> > 9. Jaguar
> > 10. Lincoln
> > 11. Toyota
> > 12. Honda
> > 13. Mazda
> > 14. Saab
> > 15. Buick
> > 16. Volkswagen
> > 17. Chrysler
> > 18. Nissan
> > ---Industry Average---
> > 19. Oldsmobile
> > 20. Subaru
> > 21. Chevrolet
> > 22. Ford
> > 23. Pontiac
> > 24. Audi
> > 25. Mercury
> > 26. Eagle
> > 27. Dodge
> > 28. Suzuki
> > 29. Plymouth
> > 30. Isuzu
> > 31. Hyundai
> > 32. Lada
>
> > They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of
> > older expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle
> > than junk it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack
> > up a lot of miles and have shorter life in years, but not
> > necessarily in miles. Some vehicles in the list didn't exist 20
> > years prior to the study so there were no vehicles 16-20 years old,
> > only vehicles 11-15 years old (this explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
> > Bottom line is that for vehicle brands in existence for the full
> > 11-20 year time span, Toyota had the highest percentage of vehicles
> > still on the road for non-luxury brands.
>
> This seems to discount the factor I am talking about - Toyota sales
> (both in the US and Canada) have greatly increased over the last
> twenty years. The average age for a set that includes all Toyotas sold
> for any period of more than one year in the last twenty years will be
> lower than for a company like GM that has had stagnent or a declining
> market share over that period. Both have been selling cars for more
> than 20 years in the market, but the average age of Toyotas sold
> during the twenty year period is not as old as the average age for GM
> cars sold during the same period. It seems to me that this must be an
> improtant factor. Unless you factor this out, then all you are doing
> to confusing people...if you are Toyota, it is a good confusion, if
> you are GM it is a bad thing.
>
> > What's also interesting is that vehicles like Volkswagen, which
> > routinely ranks far below average in reliability, did relatively
> > well.
>
> > "http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/2006/060905-1.htm"
>
> .I look at cars like applainces. When they no longer meet my needs, I
> dump them and get something else. In my opionion, VW owners (at least
> some VW owners, and particularly old Bug owners) look at the cars as
> an end in themselves. I think they take some sort of pride in proving
> that they can keep a VW running despite the odds against them. When I
> was younger, I felt like that about British Cars. I am smarter now...
>
> Ed
VW's may have occasional niggling issues that other cars don't, but
they last. And last. And last. Until the body rusts apart, which
actually takes quite a long time, an A1 or A2 chassis VW will hardly
ever have something break that is major enough to make you consider
getting rid of it. They're also quite pleasant to drive, feel much
more solid and yet sporty than other similar products from other
mfgrs.
Yes, I love my old VWs and I wish I could have kept them all.
Especially my '84 Scirocco, I don't know what the hell I was thinking
when I sold that car. I'd probably still be driving it today.
nate
== 15 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:09 am
From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
>here.
It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
== 16 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:26 am
From: "80 Knight"
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4ae8670c$0$1625$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Someone that purchases a Toyota or Honda is more likely to be more highly
> educated and higher income, and will maintain their vehicles better...
What drugs were you on when you wrote that?
== 17 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:51 am
From: N8N
On Oct 28, 2:09 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
> >here.
>
> It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
>
> However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
> You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
> immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Not in the last 20 years, I don't think. Last one to leave was
Renault I believe in something like '87 or '88?
nate
== 18 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 12:12 pm
From: "hls"
"N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c044e792-495c-4cc4-
Not in the last 20 years, I don't think. Last one to leave was
Renault I believe in something like '87 or '88?
nate
*******
It has been a while, for sure. I have driven Renault and Peugeot in Europe
in recent years and they were surprisingly powerful and smooth. I believe
they are far better than the cars of years ago which were brought here
without a proper service and distribution network.
Fiat is likely to be still Fiat.
== 19 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:01 pm
From: clare@snyder.on.ca
On 28 Oct 2009 10:48:53 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1. Lexus
>> 2. Mercedes
>> 3. Saturn
>> 4. Infiniti
>> 5. Acura
>> 6. BMW
>> 7. Volvo
>> 8. Cadillac
>> 9. Jaguar
>>10. Lincoln
>>11. Toyota
>>12. Honda
>>13. Mazda
>>14. Saab
>>15. Buick
>>16. Volkswagen
>>17. Chrysler
>>18. Nissan
>>---Industry Average---
>>19. Oldsmobile
>>20. Subaru
>>21. Chevrolet
>>22. Ford
>>23. Pontiac
>>24. Audi
>>25. Mercury
>>26. Eagle
>>27. Dodge
>>28. Suzuki
>>29. Plymouth
>>30. Isuzu
>>31. Hyundai
>>32. Lada
>>
>>They warn that this data needs to interpreted correctly. Owners of older
>>expensive luxury cars are more likely to repair their vehicle than junk
>>it. Vehicles sold in large numbers into rental fleets rack up a lot of
>>miles and have shorter life in years, but not necessarily in miles. Some
>>vehicles in the list didn't exist 20 years prior to the study so there
>>were no vehicles 16-20 years old, only vehicles 11-15 years old (this
>>explains the anomaly of Saturn).
>
>I would just like to point out that Fiat is not even ON this list, that
>it is farther down in the order than Lada. There is some justice in this
>world.
>--scott
When was Fiat last sold in America. 1988? for Canada. So no Fiats
less than 20 years old.
== 20 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:02 pm
From: Tegger
Roger Blake <rogblake10@iname10.com> wrote in
news:slrnhege2p.dn7.rogblake10@svalbard.freeshell.org:
> (A car can be kept going pretty much
> indefinitely if one is sufficiently determined.)
>
And if the climate cooperates.
Up here in the Rust Belt it is very very very difficult to keep Mother
Nature from trying to reclaim a daily-driver-car's body. Impossible,
really.
--
Tegger
== 21 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:03 pm
From: James Fenimore
"Figures" like these are whatever the source(s) want them to be ...
like urban crimes as reported periodically by law enforcement are
always "down."
There's no way for example that Toyota could ever accurately -- or
honestly -- compile the numbers cited in their ads.
Most boob-tubers that are glued to their boob tubes like boobs believe
that if "it's" on TV, it must be true.
Criminals like Bush-Cheney-Rove know this and it's why they aired
those lies that got us trapped into our noble Middle East wars.
Scoundrels like Limbaugh and Hannity employ the same tactic, knowing
that their audiences are less than informed, much less of the
inquiring type.
== 22 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:08 pm
From: clare@snyder.on.ca
On 28 Oct 2009 14:09:09 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
>>here.
>
>It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
>
>However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
>You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
>immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
>--scott
We rallyed a Renaul R12 (1972) for 3 years (1979-1981) - it was a
clunker when we bought it and we pounded the crap out of it for 3
years - and never broke it. I'd agree, from experience, about both the
Fiat and the Peugot.
== 23 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:17 pm
From: clare@snyder.on.ca
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On Oct 28, 2:09 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>> N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
>> >here.
>>
>> It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
>>
>> However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
>> You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
>> immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
>> --scott
>> --
>> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
>Not in the last 20 years, I don't think. Last one to leave was
>Renault I believe in something like '87 or '88?
>
>nate
Peugeot/Chrysler stopped selling 505 in 1991 The renaul Alliance and
Eagles ended in 1987
== 24 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:43 pm
From: N8N
On Oct 28, 4:08 pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On 28 Oct 2009 14:09:09 -0400, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> >N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
> >>here.
>
> >It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
>
> >However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
> >You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
> >immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
> >--scott
>
> We rallyed a Renaul R12 (1972) for 3 years (1979-1981) - it was a
> clunker when we bought it and we pounded the crap out of it for 3
> years - and never broke it. I'd agree, from experience, about both the
> Fiat and the Peugot.
Well, back in the day my mom had a Renault Encore (I believe that was
the Americanized version of the R11? I think?) and I ASSumed that the
comment about "apparent if you ever drive one" referred to the fact
that it could barely pull the skin off of a custard - to the point
that it was dangerous to drive in heavy traffic if you were used to
driving a powerful car - and was as exciting as sucking on a wet
dishrag.
In its defense, it WAS relatively reliable and trouble free, but gosh
darn it, I hated driving that car. I'd take the Scout or my dad's old
pickup every opportunity I could just to avoid it. The VW Golf that
replaced it was a wonderful, refreshing change. On the upside, it did
teach me to plan my moves, conserve momentum, and drive smoothly...
nate
== 25 of 25 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 28 2009 1:47 pm
From: N8N
On Oct 28, 4:17 pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njna...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 28, 2:09 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >> N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >If it's a US-centric list, that makes sense, since neither was sold
> >> >here.
>
> >> It's a Canadian list. That's why it doesn't have Yugo on it.
>
> >> However, Peugeot, Renault, and Fiat all sold cars in the US for a while.
> >> You don't see a lot of them on the road today for reasons that will be
> >> immediately apparent if you ever drive one.
> >> --scott
> >> --
> >> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> >Not in the last 20 years, I don't think. Last one to leave was
> >Renault I believe in something like '87 or '88?
>
> >nate
>
> Peugeot/Chrysler stopped selling 505 in 1991 The renaul Alliance and
> Eagles ended in 1987
You sure about that? I seem to remember the Peugeot dealership in
Pittsburgh packing up and leaving town while Renaults were still being
sold. Your date for Renault sounds about right to me, although I
think they still did sell the Renault-based Eagle Premier for a couple
more years.
nate
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