http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda?hl=en
rec.autos.makers.honda@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* Worth Paying for one more rotation? - 17 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/1e4ae2db420be1ee?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Worth Paying for one more rotation?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/t/1e4ae2db420be1ee?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 20 2011 6:06 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@example.com> wrote:
> > i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
> > ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
> > actual rubber contacting the pavement.
> >
> >
>
>
> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
..ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
same reasons jim outlines.
There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 5:45 am
From: Tegger
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
1E907E.21060120062011@news.eternal-september.org:
> In article <Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <invalid@example.com> wrote:
>
>> > i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>> > ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>> > actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>
> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
> same reasons jim outlines.
>
> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And this
is perfectly true.
It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or road-
going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when approaching the
limits of the cars' capabilities.
Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
usable tire life. Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to the
handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate getting
the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
--
Tegger
== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 6:29 am
From: Paladin
On 6/21/11 8:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty"<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
> 1E907E.21060120062011@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
>
> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And this
> is perfectly true.
>
> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or road-
> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when approaching the
> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>
> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
> usable tire life. Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>
> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to the
> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate getting
> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
>
>
Man....ask a simple question! Hey, thanks for the advice.
I'd post a longer reply but I'm out here on the interstate commuting to
work. I don't want to take the risk of raising the sun-tinted Polaroid
visor on my racing helmet so I can see the cell phone screen more
clearly-- nor taking off my fireproof nomex racing gloves to get my
fingers on the tiny little keyboard better.
Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 6:54 am
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 06:29 AM, Paladin wrote:
> On 6/21/11 8:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty"<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>> 1E907E.21060120062011@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>>
>> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
>> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And
>> this
>> is perfectly true.
>>
>> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
>> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or
>> road-
>> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when
>> approaching the
>> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>>
>> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
>> usable tire life. Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
>> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
>> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>>
>> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to
>> the
>> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
>> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate
>> getting
>> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
>> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
>>
>>
>
> Man....ask a simple question! Hey, thanks for the advice.
>
> I'd post a longer reply but I'm out here on the interstate commuting to
> work. I don't want to take the risk of raising the sun-tinted Polaroid
> visor on my racing helmet so I can see the cell phone screen more
> clearly-- nor taking off my fireproof nomex racing gloves to get my
> fingers on the tiny little keyboard better.
>
> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
wow, i wish i lived where you live. great wide straight flat roads,
perfect weather all the time, no other doofuses on the road to change
lanes without using their mirrors. and no kids chasing out into the
street either. at least, i hope not...
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 7:25 am
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 05:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty"<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
> 1E907E.21060120062011@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
>
> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And this
> is perfectly true.
>
> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or road-
> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when approaching the
> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>
> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
> usable tire life.
only if you toss the whole set when one axle's tires are done.
"rotation" simply averages the wear rate over all the tires at the same
time. if tires remain in one station, their wear rate for each station
is still exactly the same [higher in fact since individual blocks get
stressed more after a change], they're just not averaged over the set.
> Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>
> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to the
> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate getting
> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
>
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 7:29 am
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 07:25 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 06/21/2011 05:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty"<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>> 1E907E.21060120062011@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>>
>> jim says that the reason you shouldn't rotate tires is because of
>> temporarily-reduced contact patch when the tires change positions. And
>> this
>> is perfectly true.
>>
>> It's also true that if you never rotate your tires, you will maintain
>> maximal contact patch through out the tires' life. For race cars, or
>> road-
>> going performance-cars such as BMWs, this is important when
>> approaching the
>> limits of the cars' capabilities.
>>
>> Unfortunately, maintaining maximal contact-patch has a tradeoff: shorter
>> usable tire life.
>
> only if you toss the whole set when one axle's tires are done.
> "rotation" simply averages the wear rate over all the tires at the same
> time. if tires remain in one station, their wear rate for each station
> is still exactly the same [higher in fact since individual blocks get
> stressed more after a change], they're just not averaged over the set.
>
>
>> Without rotation, the portions of the tread that wear
>> most will reach their wear-limit more quickly than if the tires had been
>> subject to different wear-patterns regularly.
>>
>> Does the temporarily-reduced contact-patch make any real difference to
>> the
>> handling and safety of daily-driver Hondas that are driven the way most
>> people drive them? I don't think so. I think most people appreciate
>> getting
>> the longest life they can out of their Honda's tires, and are unlikely to
>> drive their Hondas the way race cars are driven.
forgot: this "longer life" mantra is a fundamental misconception. wear
rate is the same, it's merely averaged over more tires. that is /not/
"longer life".
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 7:51 am
From: Tegger
Paladin <gunslinger@1975.net> wrote in
news:itq6c4$mgr$1@news.albasani.net:
>
> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
--
Tegger
== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 8:00 am
From: News
On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>
>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>
> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
> same reasons jim outlines.
>
> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 8:02 am
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 07:51 AM, Tegger wrote:
> Paladin<gunslinger@1975.net> wrote in
> news:itq6c4$mgr$1@news.albasani.net:
>
>
>>
>> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
>> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
>> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
>
>
>
> And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
> patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
>
>
why do people trivialize this? traction is a safety thing much more
than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
that can stop faster than you?
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:18 am
From: Tegger
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:eIOdnZY69qbuL53TnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
> On 06/21/2011 07:51 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> Paladin<gunslinger@1975.net> wrote in
>> news:itq6c4$mgr$1@news.albasani.net:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
>>> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
>>> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
>>
>>
>>
>> And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
>> patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
>>
>>
>
> why do people trivialize this? traction is a safety thing much more
> than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
> that can stop faster than you?
>
>
I think you're overreacting just a little bit.
--
Tegger
== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:22 am
From: Tegger
News <News@Group.Name> wrote in news:y72dnT1-
g6uwL53TnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>
>
>
I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
temporary reduction in contact-patch.
--
Tegger
== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:26 am
From: "Bluto"
I'm with you, I'll rotate the tires.
"Tegger" wrote in message news:Xns9F0B7DE76BF8Ategger@208.90.168.18...
News <News@Group.Name> wrote in news:y72dnT1-
g6uwL53TnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>
>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>
>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>
>
> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>
>
>
I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
temporary reduction in contact-patch.
--
Tegger
== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:39 am
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 09:22 AM, Tegger wrote:
> News<News@Group.Name> wrote in news:y72dnT1-
> g6uwL53TnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
> regularly.
b.s. bmw's break if you actually /do/ drive them hard. ask my buddy
with the m3 and three new subframes.
> Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
> and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
> incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
> temporary reduction in contact-patch.
the factor common to all drivers, irrespective of "inexperience" or
"incompetence" is emergency braking. and with abs control, driver
competence is simply not a factor.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 10:00 am
From: News
Good luck on a stagger-shod BMW.
On 6/21/2011 12:26 PM, Bluto wrote:
> I'm with you, I'll rotate the tires.
>
> "Tegger" wrote in message news:Xns9F0B7DE76BF8Ategger@208.90.168.18...
>
> News <News@Group.Name> wrote in news:y72dnT1-
> g6uwL53TnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 6/20/2011 9:06 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article<Xns9F0ACF45AA6AFtegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>> Tegger<invalid@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> i'll take the longer survival life of the driver thanks. rotation
>>>>> ruins traction and braking control because it reduces the amount of
>>>>> actual rubber contacting the pavement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have some pretty odd ideas, sir.
>>>
>>> ...ideas which BMW put into writing and practice some time ago, for the
>>> same reasons jim outlines.
>>>
>>> There is no tire rotation for BMW vehicles.
>>
>>
>> Some of which use different tire sizes and profiles front and rear.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> I'm guessing BMW is expecting its owners to take their cars to 10/10ths
> regularly. Few daily-driver Honda owners would do that unless they're young
> and/or ricers. And when you're that close to the limit, inexperience and
> incompetence is more likely to result in crashes than some small and
> temporary reduction in contact-patch.
>
== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 5:07 pm
From: "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
In article <eIOdnZY69qbuL53TnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> traction is a safety thing much more
> than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
> that can stop faster than you?
..and let's not forget, turning involves a "stopping" vector...now the
question becomes, are Honda owners screwing themselves on THAT basis if
they make the car turn BETTER?
'Cuz, Honda designs serious understeer into their cars, on the basis
that it's better than having the car oversteer. I'm not saying that any
Honda will oversteer necessarily, but people are used to Hondas
scrubbing their front tires toward the guardrail as they take that
cloverleaf too fast. Better grip does change that behavior to some
extent...
(I presume the S2000 is the exception to this rule--I presume one can
kick the tail out pretty easily?)
== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:20 pm
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 05:07 PM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article<eIOdnZY69qbuL53TnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> traction is a safety thing much more
>> than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
>> that can stop faster than you?
>
> ...and let's not forget, turning involves a "stopping" vector...now the
> question becomes, are Honda owners screwing themselves on THAT basis if
> they make the car turn BETTER?
>
> 'Cuz, Honda designs serious understeer into their cars, on the basis
> that it's better than having the car oversteer. I'm not saying that any
> Honda will oversteer necessarily, but people are used to Hondas
> scrubbing their front tires toward the guardrail as they take that
> cloverleaf too fast. Better grip does change that behavior to some
> extent...
it does indeed. i have a set of michelin pilots on one civic and
standard tires on another. the pilots definitely push that thing around
the bends better.
but i don't think "screwing" is the right way to look at it. all you
get si slightly less understeer, you don't eliminate it by any means.
>
> (I presume the S2000 is the exception to this rule--I presume one can
> kick the tail out pretty easily?)
that's something i'll never be able to try unfortunately - too tall and
simply cannot fit behind the wheel. :(
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 21 2011 9:28 pm
From: jim beam
On 06/21/2011 09:18 AM, Tegger wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:eIOdnZY69qbuL53TnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 06/21/2011 07:51 AM, Tegger wrote:
>>> Paladin<gunslinger@1975.net> wrote in
>>> news:itq6c4$mgr$1@news.albasani.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shoot, there's the dreaded yellow flag-- backing it down past 150 mph
>>>> now. Good damn thing my tires are so grippy...only the inside two are
>>>> contacting the pavement as I make this tight turn...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And if you haven't rotated your tires, you're enjoying maximum contact
>>> patch on those two! Good for a few more MPH, for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> why do people trivialize this? traction is a safety thing much more
>> than a "racing" thing. doesn't anyone want to /not/ rear-end the car
>> that can stop faster than you?
>>
>>
>
>
> I think you're overreacting just a little bit.
>
>
i don't think you're reacting enough. rotation is an anachronistic
dogma left over from the days of bias ply - just like 3k mile oil changes.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
==============================================================================
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "rec.autos.makers.honda"
group.
To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda?hl=en
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rec.autos.makers.honda+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.honda/subscribe?hl=en
To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to abuse@googlegroups.com
==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en
No comments:
Post a Comment